Kate Codrington is a bloody legend of the Menopause space and has been on the podcast once before back in Season 1 Episode 37 (link below).

She mentors people in perimenopause and beyond, 1-2-1 online, runs groups, nature-based Yoga Nidra sessions, hosts Life - An Inside Job podcast, and creates multi-level art textile projects.

In this delicious ep we dive deep into:

• how Kate's work has always centred around the liminal spaces and the importance of having a safe place to land, so we can allow new awareness and wisdom to emerge
• a juicy conversation about the birthing of Kate's original book Second Spring, and the holding both fears of persecution and the flipside of 'clarifying her lane' in the perimenopause conversation 
• behind the scenes of the journey of Kate's new book "The Perimenopause Journal - a gorgeously illustrated, 52-week, undated journal that supports you in refining a bespoke self-care plan to ease you through your perimenopause and into a vibrant postmenopausal life.
• Kate's perspective on stress being simply a time of "higher charge" and her own self-care practices during the charged time of promo for the new book
• and so much more wisdom and divine discussion around the nuance of ageing and coming into ourselves, specially the self we were at 7 years old 

Find Kate and her work online at www.katecodrington.co.uk

And head here https://www.katecodrington.co.uk/the-perimenopause-journal-unlock-your-power-own-your-wellbeing-find-your-path/ to buy The Perimenopause Journal.

Listen in to Kate's Season 1 Wild + (finally fcking) Free episode Cut the Crap + Keep Everything Else here.

The Perimenopause Starter Pack is a 3-part online course that shows you how to use the inner seasons to create self-acceptance, so you can find your perfect self-care, develop more self-compassion so you can have greater vitality, heal primary wounds and move towards a more integrated self. Kate has generously offered listeners a for 20% - enter PERI20 at checkout: bit.ly/peri-kit

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TRANSCRIPT - S5E5 Summer Series: A Soft Place to Land with Kate Codrington

Kate Codrington: [00:00:00] Like if you think of your seven year old nerdy self, like prepubescent, seven, eight, nine, that girl, let her out. You know, she, she just, she's the one with the gold. 

Kylie Patchett: Welcome to the wild and finally fucking free podcast show. This is a space where truth talking gets real behind the scenes. Grit of the future humans is laid bare and we are celebrating and sharing the real world stories of change agents, neuro sparkly people, the witchy wild women, the deep feelers, the unapologetic senses, the status quo challenges, and the huge hearted healers and helpers.

And guiding you through this wild ride of entrepreneurship and full heart led contribution to the world is me, your host, Kylie Patchett, AKA KP. I am a proudly neuro sparkly natural born status quo challenger, and I thrive on helping disruptors rebels and revolutionaries find their voices, amplify their message into the world and harness their raw potential.

Alchemise it into unleashing your full potency. Not only will I be sharing the behind the scenes of some of the most amazing, most status quo challenging thought leaders, I'll also be lifting the veil behind my own business. In 2024, I 18x'd my monthly income. Still blows my mind to say that. And this year I am leaning into how joyful and fun it would be to shift from six figures to seven figures in a quantum shifting year.

All through leading from my full unapologetic voice, my unleashed potency, and with my big wildly lit up heart leading the way. Every single step of the way. So together with my guests, I am going to be sharing the mess and the magic, spilling the [00:02:00] tea on the identity shifts behind stepping into thought leadership, breaking the ties that bind us.

On learning old patterns and reweaving brand new ways of living, loving, learning, and leading. We're here to break boundaries, reimagine what's possible, all while collapsing timelines and leading with joy, love, and our fiercest wild woman selves. This is not just a podcast. It is a rebellion. It is a revolution.

It is an invitation to join the Mad Hatter's collective movement. And by Mad Hatters, I mean all the colourful, creative, gorgeous, world changing, out of the box humans out there. If you've ever longed to be wild and finally fucking free, this is your sign to lean in. Let's get started.

Hello, hello, hello, my love. Kylie here. Happy, happy new year. You are just about to dive into a very special summer series episode because I worked all the way through Christmas and New Year but I'm taking some space and grace because I'm just about to turn 50. So, whilst I'm offline, enjoying and celebrating and marinating in stepping into a whole new decade, we have chosen a few of our favorite episodes.

And here is one, enjoy. May your new year be full of everything you need, want, and desire. And I will see you, or you will hear from me on the other side of the Festival of 50. Let's dive in.

Hello, gorgeous people. It's Kylie. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. And today I have a returning guest, Kate Codrington. I'm doing a happy dance because I love this woman. Hello, Kate. How are you? 

Kate Codrington: I am, I'm heart bustingly thrilled to be here and to be here again. You know, it's, it's a [00:04:00] quarter to eight in the UK.

I forced my little eyesies open at quarter to seven. And I've been so busy. I've been making coffee and doing headstands to wake up enough to talk. Oh, 

Kylie Patchett: now that is a good combination. Calm the nerves. I did the headstand 

Kate Codrington: first, coffee later. Good, 

Kylie Patchett: good, good, good, good, good. We just had a whole, whole discussion about how a headstand stand could be also double used as a steaming apparatus for one's nether regions.

So that was, that was a good way for you to start the day, I'm sure. Maybe, maybe 

Kate Codrington: start with headstands. Closed 

Kylie Patchett: with, uh, 

Kate Codrington: probably 

Kylie Patchett: top end first, then bottom end. Definitely . Now I've got that 

Kate Codrington: straight. Now that sets the tone for this podcast nicely. 

Kylie Patchett: Basically nothing is, you know what, you're in for people, . I love it.

This is why I love talking to you, and I know it's always like the Australian to UK time difference is such a pain in the bum. So I am grateful that you once again, have gotten up early for us . Um, it's just about to. It's actually just about to be massive storm here. So hopefully our internet is fine.

Anyway, for those people who don't already know you, could you please introduce your gorgeous self? 

Kate Codrington: Well, I am, what am I? I'm postmenopausal. So that gives you a, for some years now, for about six, seven years. So I have a, a non oestrogenic view of the world. So the first thing you should know about, about your life, if you were female, you know, born female, uh, female at birth is that, uh, it gets better.

Kylie Patchett: Yes, 

Kate Codrington: a lot better. And life with different levels of oestrogen postmenopause is exceedingly good. Exceedingly good. 

Kylie Patchett: Do you know, I, um, I remember back to when we first talked and it was just before our family Christmas. So we have family Christmas in March. So [00:06:00] yeah, the family Christmas in March and we spoke.

And one of the key things that I still remember to this day, I had it on my wall for a very long time is from you from that episode where self care is anything that makes you feel safe. And that really hit home to me because I was still in the early stages of that complete discombobulation, deep in like swinging from rage to crying to, you know, didn't know who that guy was.

And now I feel like, um, I'm at the quickening stage. It's like, um, I feel like my little ovaries are sputtering to their end. I know their last hurrah. Um, but when I first started the podcast and I heard people like you saying about post menopause and how it gets better, that was like a life raft at those times.

So I just, I so I'm so grateful to be able to connect to people in all stages of their lives. Um, and all genders and gender identifications, but thank you for saying that for the rest of us that are not quite there yet. 

Kate Codrington: Yeah, it's really important because the dominant narrative is one of decay and deficiency and illness and falling apart and, you know, there's, there is, there is no doubt that we get more vulnerable as we age.

An aging body requires more care. There is no doubt about that. And the care that you're learning, the way that you learn to care yourself in perimenopause sets you up to do that well. I guess I have a longer perspective now about it's not just about getting through sort of staggering through your 40s without too much injury.

It's about setting up. The second 

Kylie Patchett: half of your life. Yeah. Setting the scene. That's so powerful. I interrupted you when you were introducing yourself. So please continue. We've got to the different interruptions. I just did one. There you go. We bounce off each other. It's fine. 

Kate Codrington: Okay. I'll give you the [00:08:00] more conventional answer.

I am a writer. I published two books. The most recent one is a journal and it will be out in in Australia very soon, November. And, uh, I also, um, what else do I do? I'm a yoga nidra guide. I'm passionate about lying down and doing nothing and getting into a dreamy in between state. I'm a huge fan of the liminal from that yoga nidra and emergent process.

So I'm a, I've been a therapist for more than 30 years and what I mentor people, uh, individuals and groups. And my interest is in what is in the wisdom that is emerging gently from us. So it's often stuff that we don't like. It's often that rage. It's often that difficulty. It's often the compression. It's referring to what we were talking to earlier.

It's often stuff that is challenging and difficult for us. That is emerging and wanting to speak and wanting so my my job is to hold the space for the For the soft animal body, I think You know, like mary oliver said and to kind of be the champion of the soft animal body and hold space for that I think that's You know, obviously I make up what I do every day.

Kylie Patchett: Is that what being an online business owner is? You just make up titles and live into them? Like really? Yes, 

Kate Codrington: yes, exactly. That's, that's my current iteration of thinking. Yeah, that is what I do. 

Kylie Patchett: So beautiful. I love that. Um, I know that, um, you've been drawn to working with women in transition for many, many, you know, like the whole time that you've been a psychotherapist, but so many different modalities.

And I feel like they're all woven in together to have this beautiful. I don't know, like a soft place to land is what I want to say. Like that where people can rest and allow, I love the word emergence because to me, that's, [00:10:00] um, emergence is very different to pushing for the answer or, you know, that striving, like it's very, It's the opposite of all of that, right?

It's the waiting and the resting and the listening and the depth and the mystery and the darkness and then the invitation. 

Kate Codrington: And it's, it's mysterious. And I think that's the thing. So it requires us to sort of walk carefully and slowly in the dark to feel our way. And that's really challenging for a transcript.

21st century human with Instagram, because 

Kylie Patchett: Instagram, I know, right? 

Kate Codrington: Because we want three, we want three top tips. And we want three steps. And we want it really clearly laid out. And we want goals. And we want, you know, all that sort of old school cold coaching stuff about name your goals and three steps and visualize it and off you go.

And I that's one that I mean, that suits some people. Yes, there's no doubt that that really suits some people. And I think for an unfolding sensitive person that often misses the mark and you miss the juice, you miss the, the tolerance. For being with ambivalence. 

Kylie Patchett: For being with paradox. I knew you were going to have a mic drop few moments where you just like that, like.

Yeah, I know, I was like, oh, Kylie, you drew it out of me. 

Kate Codrington: You missed, you missed that. And these, these kind of, these kind of both and ambivalence paradox. not knowing and knowing like, like, I mean, you're, you're, you're in the zone. You have that complete, I know nothing. I'm in the fog. I can't think. Who the fuck am I?

Yeah. I don't know who I am. And I absolutely know. It's like, what is that? And that, that people, [00:12:00] that is just such a profound state of being human, poetic state of humanness. Isn't it? Which it's easy to like, oh, well, I don't really know. And, and I'm too, and I miss it. And then you miss it. But it's like, it's, it's just like, you know, so expansive.

Kylie Patchett: Oh, my God, you are so speaking right, right where I am at the moment, because there's this, um, I'm, I still have a very strong part of me that likes the black and white and the structure and the step by step and the goals and the this and the that, and yet there's a much deeper and much stronger and getting stronger by the minute part of me just going.

Just allow it to unfold. And I think when you said before, you know, the structure or the goals or the kind of like one, two, three suits some people, but I think the nuance there is also some people at some phases and stages of life, I think that the younger version of me had such a high drive for what she saw as safety and security, which was.

At that stage, living in my head and planning everything out. And now I know that is an absolute lie. 

Kate Codrington: For me, anyway. Yeah. Thank you. That's really clarifying. And it reminds me of my old teacher, uh, Goethe Boysen, who would talk about the river and the banks. Some people need really, sometimes the banks need to be really high and really strong.

Thank you. To allow the river to flow through really fast, if you think about a gorge or something like 

that. But 

Kate Codrington: sometimes the banks are low, the river runs wide and slow. Yes. Oh, I love that. So it depends on, yeah, exactly, life stage, what you're doing. Um, and certainly in terms of, safety for, for a vulnerable person who is not feeling safe, then you absolutely need strong banks because we all know, if you think about sort of archetypal [00:14:00] yoga fairy and everything's wonderful, I'm flapping my arms around if you're watching the video, you know, I'm grounded, nothing ever happens.

It's all, it's all a bit heady and vague, you know, then nothing ever happens. So she, she has a wide, a wide river. She needs some Stronger banks. 

Kylie Patchett: Yes, exactly. And also you can 

Kate Codrington: get stronger banks by, uh, physical banks by doing, you know, like lifting weights, muscle training, getting stronger, you get the physical ego as well.

So there's, there's physical stuff. It works on all levels. There's physical stuff you can do. 

Kylie Patchett: Like all those layers, isn't it? So many layers and so many, um, you, yeah, you are. Again, just echoing a conversation I had this morning where I said to my friend, you know what? I used to be such a, like, I have been for such a long time.

I think I, I started lifting weights when I was maybe 18. And just in the last, I think about 12 months, I've had to stop to refocus on rehab. And now I've been given the all clear and I'm like, The groundedness that I get and that real, like, I don't know, it's something, it does something to my energy where there's this, um, more solid of a presence, it feels like in my body.

Um, and I just, I miss that so much. So getting the, yay, just recently, I'm like, okay. And now the challenge will be because I'm going to expect myself to be able to lift it. The, you know, the ability that I had when I had to stop a year ago, and that is not going to be the case. So it'll be a gentle, gentle, gentle, gentle.

Kate Codrington: And I think you'll notice as you gently and slowly increase your weight, you'll find that you have more capacity in your life, more capacity for holding, holding yourself for 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've really, 

Kate Codrington: really missed 

Kylie Patchett: it. Um, although I do have to say that I think the Space [00:16:00] that was created by some of the changes that happen at the same time have also much more opened me up to rest.

And like, we were talking before we started recording that I've just spent the last hour with my legs up the wall, creating content by dictating it. Because I was like, I need the physical and nervous system reset. And I'm actually feeling very capable of doing that. You know, just still doing the content creating, but doing it in a way that actually works for me.

Whereas I think when I had such a structured. View of what physically healthy meant I was missing. Like I was missing all the magic that you teach and hold space for. Um, so I'm grateful for the space to learn both, and I'm also excited. Well, you have just 

Kate Codrington: named, you have just named a key perimenopausal skill.

People say, how do I rest? How do I rest? I run two businesses, I have two kids, I look after my parents, how do I do it? And the key there is, once you've delegated everything and, you know, let go of whatever you can let go of, is to change. The way in which you do things. So it's a qualitative change. It's exactly as you're saying.

Mm hmm. 

Kate Codrington: Definitely. Dictating your content with your legs up the wall. Mm. Instead of sitting, hunched up at your desk. 

Kylie Patchett: Yes. And the precursor to that was an hour and a half in bed because I just was like, I actually just need to lie flat for a little minute. So I did a very long meditation and then I crossed off probably, I don't know, four hours of stuff that I was going to do.

You know, last week, Kylie, who did her list for this week, who obviously was in a high functioning mode. And today Kylie looked at and went, what the fuck was you, what are you thinking? So yeah, delegated half of it and just ditch the rest because I am getting much better at going, you know what, I'm going to lower my expectations of myself.

So yeah, I feel that [00:18:00] that's part of it as well. It's, it's, and approaching the things that. Um, and I think it's important to me that I do value to get done in the lightest, most, um, like joyful and enjoyable way, even if it's creating content, that's like, you know, do I really feel like creating next month's content?

Not to be honest, but sticking my legs up the wall and doing it playfully actually felt quite good. So, yeah, it's just the. Approach, I think sometimes as well. 

Kate Codrington: And one, one of the, if one, once you have this more open curiosity about how you can approach the tasks that you have to hand, what I, what I notice and I, what I observe in other people is the ener, you know, we're back to rivers again.

The, the, the energy runs through you more easily. So it's not, it's the different, it's, it's kind of like the difference between pushing through and. Allowing, except that the energy, except that the energy wants to come through you, that there's life wants, life, life is already waiting and wanting to come through you.

And mostly we stop it because we're, because we're ill or we don't have the capacity or we, we are afraid or whether it's not safe, or, you know, 1000 reasons why we can't allow that. 

Mm hmm. 

Kate Codrington: But by, by sticking your legs up the wall, for example, it allows life to flow through you and it allows, it will likely take you to different places that are, sorry, my, my pea brain, you know, my pea brain cannot conceive of where I want to go.

You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't ever have imagined that I was, I would have created what I've done, what I've done in the last five years. 

Kylie Patchett: I love that. That I 

Kate Codrington: got out of my own way. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. [00:20:00] Yes. Do you think, um, Do you think part of that happens as a, if we allow it, like if, if we're, if we're not just saying, no, I have to stay exactly the same and I'm just going to force my way through perimenopause and it's going to be a shit show and whatever, which there is a certain amount of that kind of idea on.

Anyway, we don't even want to go there. Um, do you think that opening up to new ways of being is one of the benefits of going through this like initiation portal? Because actually what, before you answer that, I should introduce to people, if they don't already know about your first book before we get to a second one, um, why I invited you on the show the very first time was because I read your book right in the beginning of the absolute clusterfuck stage of perimenopause where I just didn't even know.

I thought I was actually having a mental breakdown and I found your book second spring or someone told me about it. And I read it over Christmas, new year, like two years ago. And I was like, I need to interview this person because the way that you were talking about like rest and self care and taking care of yourself on multiple levels so that you have the capacity to step through perimenopause was like.

What? Hang on a minute. Is this even a, like, is this a possibility? Do I get to actually change the way that I am being in the world? I know that's a very long question, but do you think that one of the gifts is changing your approach or, or being invited to change your approach to something? 

Kate Codrington: I think you can't help it.

Like that, that's, that's what menopause is for. Menopause is an invitation to step closer to yourself. That's what it is. Ah, stop it. Too many quotes, Kate. Manifold is an invitation. It absolutely is. If you think about it, like in psychotherapeutic terms, it's actualization, it's individuation. It's coming to yourself.

It's dropping your conditioning. It's therapy. Oh, so 

good. 

Kate Codrington: It's 

Kylie Patchett: free [00:22:00] therapy. Free therapy, free therapy that you don't actually get to decide one way or the other, you just are, if you're born with, if you're born with female parts and 

Kate Codrington: That's, that's what's happening. And of course, we know if you've ever been in a, in a healing process or a growthful process that it hurts because you have to let go of stuff and you have to grow out of your, Like a, like hermit crabs, we have to scuttle across the floor to the next size shell.

Kylie Patchett: I'm like in between shells at the moment. So I'm in that beautiful, like it's the liminal, but it also feels quite vulnerable, but also really powerful. And like, which shell will I choose? And how am I going to show up in the world? And I feel like I'm in that amazing position where. All of a sudden it's like, once I challenged one condition, it's like, all of them are like a, you know, ball of string and it's like, I've pulled it one and now this one's unraveling and this one's unraveling and this one I'm like, holy Julie, can you do any more up leveling and unraveling and becoming more of yourself than this?

I don't think so. I just think far out, but yeah, I love that hermit crab thing. Do we have to go back into a shell? Can I be like a 

Kate Codrington: star, 

Kylie Patchett: like 

Kate Codrington: a, 

Kylie Patchett: a 

Kate Codrington: starfish? That's a great, that's a great question. And I think that a lot of, you know, people's people, because I'm post menopausal and because I talk about this stuff, people think I've got it sorted.

But of course, I'm just, I'm just blundering, blundering around, blundering around in the dark, bumping into furniture and burning out again and lying down and you know, you know, I'm as messy as anybody else. And I think what I observe in myself and in my clients is that we, we try on different shells to find, to find what works in any given moment.

So, you know, you don't, you don't want to be too armored, do you? No. You don't want to be too rigid. But there are times when, [00:24:00] you know, you have to put on your warrior, let's stick with shellfish, you have to put on your big, your big thick oyster shell and like, do some shit, right? So, you know, it depends on, I think that what we would look for is, um, choice between, like, both of them.

Yeah. Yeah. If you think about great leaders, they can be very vulnerable and very firm. Yes, 

Kylie Patchett: absolutely. And they know when to use each of those. And I think that's the wisdom, isn't it? 

Kate Codrington: So that, I think that's, that's what, well, that's what I would aspire to. 

Kylie Patchett: Do you know my, I've got a jukebox in my head at all times and it is playing.

You've got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them. So a little bit of a country twist to our shell analogy, but to me it's like, yeah, you've got to know what to bring to what occasion. Yeah. Kenny Rogers. Yeah. I'm not going to sing it. Cause I sang last week when I was recording and I'm thinking.

Well, we're trying to increase listenership, not decrease it.

Oh dear. Um, I'm interested to hear when you wrote, how long ago did you actually write Second Spring? Cause I know, I know when it was published, but did you, was that a menopause? It was 

Kate Codrington: published 22, I think I started 2019.

2018, 2019. I've only started secretly 2018. Secretly, yes. I'm not, I'm not writing a book. I'm just writing a very, very long blog. 

Kylie Patchett: That's going on and on and has chapters. I love it. I love it. I love it. Um, when you, I'm curious about your, the, the process of deciding that, cause You've got so much mastery in this space and you've been working in this space for such a long time.[00:26:00] 

What was the process of deciding that you were going to, because to me, writing a book requires a certain amount of deciding, I'm claiming my thought leadership and I'm stepping up to be, you know, the intention is to share a message. Often a message that hasn't been shared before, um, around something that you're passionate about enough to want to deliver to a far greater audience.

Can you tell us a bit about that journey? Do you relate to that? Did you, was it a conscious like, I'm stepping up? 

Kate Codrington: I think I've been waiting for five years for something to ask you this question. Okay. Go, go, go, go. Um, I could feel, well, I could feel the landscape changing. So I should preface this by saying I'm not, I'm not a driven person.

I'm kind of a bumbling about kind of person. I don't like, I'm quite introverted. I don't like, um, being visible, you know, all those things. So, and then, I could feel the zeitgeist. The zeitgeist rising around, um, periods around period, power, period, consciousness, period. Poverty was, uh, starting to be in the news.

Mm-Hmm. . And I had trained at red school with, uh, Alexandra Pope. Yes. And, uh, Shawnee Hug Wooder. Yes. So I was, I was in that world and I was like. or menopause is next. And I had this, like, talk about, um, energy coming through you. I was absolutely driven. I was like a Jack Russell Terrier on my arm, on its arm, on the, on the tail of a rat.

Kylie Patchett: I have a half Kelpie, half Jack Russell. You are describing Frankie in a nutshell, but not on a rat. He would rather. Noisy, 

Kate Codrington: noisy, absolutely to determine nothing would put me off. And I literally. Put every, all other bits of my work aside, in retrospect, I can see this. Wow. [00:28:00] To make that happen. And I knew that I had a key, you know, it's like, I knew, I just knew that I had a key piece in this, because I was with.

Working with Red School at the time, and they have a very, you know, they have done the most innovative, deep, soulful, a mazing work, you know, game changing work, and it's not accessible to most people, because of the language they 

Kylie Patchett: use. Because 

Kate Codrington: of, um, yeah, because the language, and they make it, you know, Um, yeah, it's just not accessible, really.

I agree. And I knew, I knew that my job, because I'd been writing for a long time, you know, blogging for a long time, was to bring back their work into the fold. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah, 

Kate Codrington: so good. And I, you know, I, I just pursued it and I, I was gonna self publish. It's like, right, I've just, it's like, all right, I've got, I've got this enormous poo and I have to get this poo out and then I can get on with my life.

And it's coming whether I like 

Kylie Patchett: it or not, so you may as well. It's coming. 

Kate Codrington: Love it. I love it. So I looked, I looked at my, um, my, one of the shelves of women's health books and I just emailed all the people who I could find their emails and I sent them the first chapter and, and, uh, and to my amazement, some of them wrote back.

And to my great amazement, one of them said, that's not bad. That's pretty good. Do you want me to introduce you to my agent?

Kylie Patchett: Reflect back to everyone listening. It's the internal, like I was called to do something. So I stepped into that. And then my next response to my environment and my knowing was, I might just find those people and see what happens. Um, whereas if we go back to that, you know, very brain based, [00:30:00] like goal setting, you could have been like, I'm going to pitch bloody, bloody, blah, and in particular way and whatever.

And yet you flowed and actually Was able to connect with, so did you, is that the person that would person, but publishing house that you ended up going with the original. 

Kate Codrington: So I, I, that was two. So I connected with the agent. She took me on and she's, she got me a deal at Harper Collins, which is, yeah, it was, it's, and it felt like being Cinderella.

I still feel a bit fearful, but then again, you know, things like. I don't know if people have heard of Susie Orbach. Susie Orbach set up the, um, uh, Women's Psychotherapy Center in the 1970s in London. She's, I think, the primary agent of body consciousness in the therapeutic world. Um, she was, she's famous because she was Princess Diana's therapist.

But she's old, she's older now, she's in her 80s and she's like a voice of reason in the world to me. And I, I just kept emailing her assistant and saying,

I wonder if Susie would look at that book. And you know, I did, did that over through over two years or something. And she did. And I got a testimony. Which is, it's like being blessed by, by the fairy godmother. You know, some people dream of getting married. That was never my thing. I was never, I never bought into that bullshit.

I'm so glad 

Kylie Patchett: I asked this question because I love it. I mean, I'm really glad you asked. So good. So did you. Was there any, because originally you said, you know, being introverted, don't like being visible that much. Did you have to, what was the process like of then, okay, now I'm out? Of The Closet as a published author and I need to, was there a lot of promotion for the first book because that was well before I came into the 

Kate Codrington: business.

Yeah, well the process of coming out has been happening over 30 years. Yes. It [00:32:00] took a long time. Here I am. What happened with the publication was I, it ignited all my persecutory fancies. Yeah, of course. Um, about being called out, about being cancelled, about being, you know, navigating gender issues in the current time, you, uh, one is attacked by both sides, people who feel that women's rights are being lost and people who feel that, um, trans rights are being ignored and it's not inclusive and, you know, you've got, 

Kylie Patchett: yeah, it's, 

Kate Codrington: it's a very, 

Kylie Patchett: It feels very charged, doesn't it?

Kate Codrington: It's highly charged. So I had a lot of nervous system soothing to do.

Kylie Patchett: Thank God you had the tools, right? Because that type of thing stops a lot of people even becoming authors or delivering their message to the world because that, that fear of being seen and heard. At a much greater scale and also claiming your thought leadership comes up with so much shit for us women.

I mean, I'm sure for everyone, but so much for Yeah. Being rejected, judged, being called arrogant, being called whatever, like, you know, fill in the blank here. Yeah. 

So how did you, 

Kate Codrington: sorry, hang on. But on the, the other side of that, the other side of the, per the persecutory fears and the Mm-Hmm. sense of unsafety is that I, it defined clearly what my lane is.

I didn't have to. I didn't have to kind of pretend to be the person who, who knows all about the physiological process of hormones or about bone health or about, you know, I can talk about, I can talk about that, but my thing is the liminal space and the, the mysterious potential for growth in the seasons.

That's my thing. So I, it kind of defined my lane so clearly. That I can just let other people bang on about [00:34:00] their thing. Yeah, whatever their lane is, exactly. And I don't, I absolutely don't get pulled out of my lane anymore. Yes. I'm just, it's like, I sometimes I talk about aging as being a process of um, releasing your inner nerd.

Like if you think of your seven year old nerdy self, like prepubescent, seven, eight, nine, that girl, let her out. You know, she, she just, she's the one with the gold. Yep. And when I was seven, I was. You know, I was making little altars under trees, I'm talking, talking to the spirits, um, you know, mostly, mostly, mostly, mostly plants.

Well, I had um, What do I do now? I make up yoga nidras where we talk to plants. 

Kylie Patchett: Right. Exactly. And oh my God, this is making so much sense to me. I am, we have just cleaned out. Like I said before, we I'm, we're building a garden office for me. And part of that is moving everything out of there, which used to be a storage shed.

Um, and just the other day I found my seven, um, seventh birthday present, um, which was a microscope. Because seven year old Kylie was obsessed with biology, obsessed with understanding how human beings ticked and, and like how everything happened on the macro. And also the other half of me was up in a tree with my entire imaginary, um, you know, friends, family, et cetera, talking to fairies and off telling stories, writing stories, writing stories, telling stories, and drawing.

That's, that's the seven year old me. And I was like, Oh, It's like finding a little bit of yourself in a box. It was really good. And I'm like, I don't know why we've got that because I'm, you know, I don't think that anyone's going to be using it anytime soon, but it was quite sweet because I think that's, um, also a time in my life before my childhood got chaotic.

So it's quite a, [00:36:00] you know, I feel like I was developing into me and then it was like interrupted for quite some time. So that was, it was sweet to have that remembering of what was important to me then. And I really love that coming back to your seven year old self. Well, as you were saying that I was imagining, um, God, I'm going to bastardize this because I don't even know this is like, this is Kylie with no general knowledge whatsoever.

So you're just going to be gobsmacked when this comes out of my mouth. Anyway, statue of David, who, who created the statue of David police? Cause I'm going to say the wrong person. Is that Michelangelo? It was Michelangelo. Oh, go me. Okay. Last time I did this something and I was talking to someone, I said Da Vinci anyway, um, Michelangelo, have you heard that quote where he went, supposedly someone said to him, how do you create Michelangelo?

And he says, take away everything that isn't him in that block of stone. And as you're saying that, like stripping away the layers kind of thing, or going back to a seven year old self, it's like. We formed and then we got all those shells and all the conditionings and all the whatevers. And now we're just chipping it back to, you know, who we really are on the inside.

That feels 

Um, 

Kylie Patchett: what you said about also defining your lane. I talk about that a lot in, um, the booking incubator that I run, because to me, writing a book alchemizes you from, I often see it alchemizing someone from someone who can do and, and potentially does do a lot of things that are kind of interconnected to actually staking a claim on a clear lane.

Like there's, there's some sort of alchemy that happens where it's like, actually, this is what I. want to deliver. And this is what I want to be known for because it's true to me. Like, you know, that's my passion or that's my purpose, message, whatever words you want to use. So that's interesting to hear you say.

Kate Codrington: I mean, I do, I do many different things. I'm a [00:38:00] polymath, you know, I will not do one thing. I would, I would. go absolutely ding dong bats if I did one thing, but they're, they're all, they all have that theme, you know, that, that, that theme of, um, softness is very strong. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

Kate Codrington: So good. 

Kylie Patchett: Oh my 

Kate Codrington: goodness. 

Kylie Patchett: Um, I want to come back to you before we get to your new book, baby, which I'm so interested in hearing about the journey behind that one.

Um, When you said before that, when we're talking about goals, like just say the sides of the banks, was there a time in your life when you were more that way inclined or have you always been someone who's able to kind of blow and like you use the language bumbling along, but as a serious security driven planner in my early life, I see people like that.

It's like you and just go, I love it because you just follow the magic. And you allow it to just happen, or at least from the outside, that's what it seems. 

Kate Codrington: Well, I used to try, you know, because I think, Oh, that's the way that I should, you know, I should, you know, in our digital world. There are lots of people who tell you that this is the way to success.

So I have very frequently tried and given lots of energy to that. And it just doesn't work. 

Kylie Patchett: Which thank goodness, because it would get in the way of the true magic of Kate Codrington. Let's be honest. 

Kate Codrington: But then I would have been, I don't know, an internet marketer. Oh God. Oh, just got a feeling in my soul.

It's like someone hit me. If you have online courses. In my, in my fantasy, if I imagine the online courses that I created that tanked so many of them. 

Kylie Patchett: We all have an online course graveyard, Kate, let's be honest. Everyone who's an online entrepreneur has a course graveyard. 

Kate Codrington: If they had been successful, then I would have had to have, you know, been, if I hadn't been in creating the ads myself, then I would have been talking to the people who [00:40:00] created the ad, you know, and where would be the fun in that?

Kylie Patchett: Exactly. 

Kate Codrington: Exactly. I would have been a lot wealthier probably, but 

Kylie Patchett: Well, I don't know. It depends how you define wealth, right? 

Kate Codrington: Absolutely. 

Kylie Patchett: Because there's not just one way, one, I feel like creative wealth for me is something that is so important, particularly given that I, yeah, shut, shut it away for such a long time.

And now I'm like play time and during time and just for fun creation time is so for me, so fundamental to my own self care now. Um, and perimenopause as well. Because it just like, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't continue on without that nourishment. That was just because not for an end goal or to get somewhere or to, I don't know, all the scale or rush or blah, blah, blah, you know, all that crap.

Kate Codrington: Yeah, we, we, well, we, it sounds like we both draw. But like our seven year old selves, but other people will do other things, you know, there might be, there will certainly be people out there who are into animals and ponies. Yes, I would think, or dogs or cats or, or something else. 

Yeah, 

Kate Codrington: yeah, that will have the same function and I wanted to say about this creative tsunami that comes that can come through and perimenopause, is that that Yeah.

And we're going into seasons here. That, that creativity comes out of the place of not knowing. So that's a wintry place of, yeah, I don't know. Whenever you sit with your pen, or your pencil, or your brush on paper, or before then, there is a place of what's going to happen. You don't really know and that, that is what, you know, that, that is the micro that, oh, here we [00:42:00] go, here we go, that is the micro that menopause teaches us because we're sitting in a big, big unknown for quite, for quite some years.

Kylie Patchett: So many. Oh my God. So many. Far out, man. I look back and I'm like, Oh my God, this started years before I thought it did. When I was doing all the questioning and the, how the fuck did I get here? And who the fuck are you? And I don't want to fucking do that. Like everything was like, nah, nah, nah, nah. And I used to just think, God, I'm so rebellious by nature.

And I am, that is, that is true. But I realized it was just shedding all of the things that were not something that I wanted to continue or not something that I wanted to stay available for in the next years, decades, etc of my life. Um, and again, perfectly timed because yeah, I feel like that creative tsunami is rising in me.

That's why I get the sense that I'm Almost at the end of the, like almost at the line of the beginning of that 12 month period of, you know, the proving ground. Um, because I feel the springtime energy whispers, whispers, just whispers and that surge that comes out of the dark, which is very cool. The nice feeling.

Which brings us beautifully to your next book creation. Now what's the story behind this one then? Because like, so, so Second Spring came out in 2022. Did you know straight away you wanted to do a journal? Like that was on the cards already? Or how did it? 

Kate Codrington: It was just plain novice. 

I love what you did 

Kate Codrington: there.

It's just big noise. Second Spring is a very generous book. I kind of put everything. Like, here's everything you need to know. Here's the food, here's the belly massage, here's the cholesterol attacks, here's the exercise and the movement. Like the whole seasons and the meditations and the yoga nidra is like, it has everything.

But of course, like, here you go, [00:44:00] off you go. Fixed now. Job done. Um, but of course, The process of any kind of change and shift requires daily care and daily, um, acts of kindness, I would say. So this, the, the journal, which I have to say is absolutely beautiful, the publishers. I wanted, I wanted it to be a beautiful place, a beautiful place.

For people to land softly and to be compassionate with themselves about how they are being kind to themselves. And it is absolutely gorgeous, there's gorgeous illustrations, um, and beautiful design, it is lovely. Just so chuffed. I'm completely chuffed and I'm blooming picky. 

Kylie Patchett: Do you know what? I, um, I saw you open, I was on, I must be on Instagram.

Um, I saw you open the book and I did the same with, um, the beautiful knee from instinct yoga when she just opened her book. I just loved seeing the look of sheer delight on your face when you held her, but also obviously looking at the illustrations and being like, excuse me, This is what I imagined.

This is what you know, that, that this is what I was crafting. 

Kate Codrington: Did 

Kylie Patchett: you illustrate it as well? 

Kate Codrington: No. God, that would've killed me. . Can you imagine? Well, I was just about to be very impressed across the world. Oh my God. No words only. Did you know who you wanted to illustrate? Like did you Um, I know, no, I didn't. I knew what I wanted it to look like.

I have a, I have a very particular interest in, uh, drawing and in line. And sensitive line. Very nerdy. Sensitive 

Kylie Patchett: line. No, that's the same sort of drawing that I do. So just quietly, same, same. Um, it's, yeah, I'm looking at the cover of it now and I just, I love the [00:46:00] fact that to me it's like this journey that you're going into the unknown, you've got the autumn feel and there's that.

Yeah, there is a grandeur. I love your subtitle too. It's unlock. So we should say what it's called, because we are talking about a book that we haven't actually announced to the world. So it's called perimenopause journal, unlock your power, own your wellbeing, find your path by the gorgeous Kate Codrington.

Um, now available. end of November, is that correct? 

Kate Codrington: In, in your part of the world, I think mid November. Okay, cool. I'm not really sure. I thought it was the first, the publishers think it's the first. Amazon thinks it's the end of the month and you said 17th. And I know somebody who's receiving one tomorrow morning, so.

It's so weird. 

Kylie Patchett: Because I'm on Amazon Australia now with the opener. It says released on November the 28th, but oh, hang on. Then it says UK imports may differ from local products. Who knows? I don't know. Whatever. Anyway, this is out mid November. So either right now or Or very shortly, the book will be open, um, or available.

Um, so when you actually started creating, did you start straight away after the last book? Like how, how quickly did you get yourself? Let's 

Kate Codrington: talk about that because that's, that's, that's really a thing. So, yeah. So for people who write books and I'm sure there are lots of people listening or who aspire to, or in the process of now, once you finish.

When you, when you, what kind of, that, that sort of Carly's talking about when you open the book and Oh, it's wonderful! What happens directly after that is you fall into a dark hole. Yes, you do. You fall into a dark winter where, uh, everything feels pointless. You don't know what that was. And simultaneously at that moment, you are asked to go on, you are asked to go on podcast to go all perky and, you know, stretchy, richest grin about how [00:48:00] marvelous it is.

So that's a, that's a great paradox to hold. So just know that that's normal. Yeah, 

Kylie Patchett: I'm so glad that you say that. 

Kate Codrington: Yeah, it's pretty important. 

Kylie Patchett: We were messaging right when you had to hit the next day phase, um, where you were like, ah, so much. And then now I just have to start with the promotion. And I was like, Oh yeah, yep.

Yep. It's, and it is a paradox. And I think, so actually I did want to ask you before, but I'll ask about this book specifically. And then we can talk about whether it was different for the first one. How are you taking care of your own capacity right now? Because you are in promotion and you are on that edge of trying to hold.

This end in the, in the liminal and, and it's quite a long period, right? Like you were saying before, it was like five months of 

quite 

Kylie Patchett: intense. And I'm like hearing that I want to stick a fork in my eye, to be honest, but how are you taking care of yourself in amongst all of that? 

Kate Codrington: Um, extremely diligently.

My self care is absolutely non negotiable rock solid. And that includes Food. I'm eating the best, best that I ever am. I exercise like a loony, well not like a loony, I exercise within my capacity. Yes. And that's non negotiable. Um, the yoga nidra I use, which is a guided meditation, I do that three times a day.

Oh, wow. I always have. I may also have a NAP. A part of that NAP might be Nedra, but um, I also have a NAP. Um, I am diligent, the self care is diligent, uh, with my discernment about what I, what else I take on. Um, I've also had my daughter go, um, she's just gone to uni, so there's Oh wow, so much going on. The whole, the whole issue around, what the fuck was that parenting thing about?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where is she? She's just turned into a nice human. I mean, she's always been a nice human, but [00:50:00] she's turned into a really nice human. And she's gone. 

You do the hard yards and 

Kylie Patchett: you really should get the benefit at the end of the night. I know exactly what you 

Kate Codrington: mean. 

Kylie Patchett: Right. Yeah. Come on.

Bite 

Kate Codrington: my ass, girl. Exactly. Oh, 

Kylie Patchett: thank God. That's not just around the corner. God willing. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So that's a huge life transition on top of book release. Far out. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kate Codrington: So this. All required. Yeah. So I would say all those things. So I'm, I'm, I'm dead. Yeah. Extremely diligent about, um, like, 

Kylie Patchett: yeah.

What happens to you? What is your like slippery slide that starts happening? If it isn't that diligent, it's my sleep and then everything goes sideways from there, right? When you're not sleeping 

Kate Codrington: properly, I think my sleep is very telling Uh, yeah, it's, and the interesting thing is that it's good for me to remember and for people to also remember for themselves that whatever your symptom is, it's often as a result of something that is charged with that.

And you, you can call that stress or excitement, but it's just charge. It's just charge. And it's really helpful to remove judgment from it, you know. So public writing and publishing a book and promoting a book is just charged and there will be an effect of that. That will have an effect on my nervous system for a certain amount of time and because I'm a sort of nut job high energy person who has to work really hard to come down again.

I'm just gonna be stuck, you know, I have to work really hard to come down again. Yeah, in reality, I am gonna be highly charged. My sleep's gonna be messed up for the duration for me. That's really the truth. 

Kylie Patchett: That's why I asked because I, um, I find it's funny, [00:52:00] well, interesting to me that, that my default with lack of self care much younger would definitely be.

Like a full on tip into depression. Like sleep was never an issue. I could sleep. Like I was like an Olympic level sleeper, like no problem with sleep. Um, but if I got myself into a cycle of not taking care of my basic human needs, like going back to the soft animal body, um, then depression would, that would be my show up.

Now it's actually tipping in the other direction where, and I'm just coming through a period where I haven't been diligent and I love that word. I'm actually using devotion as well, because to me. Being devoted to my self care and my capacity, particularly. at a season in my business where I'm stepping into an evolution that is requiring more visibility and more being seen, being heard, being, you know, that type of thing, which is also charged.

Um, and I just went through a whole week last week where I just got very wobbly and I wasn't devoted. And I noticed I get into this crazed, like hyper focused overworking, just like really Yeah, totally ungrounded. So that is the other reason why I'm really looking forward to getting back to the weights, because I know that that is a very strong, um, anchor for me energetically.

Um, but yeah, I love diligence, diligent, actually, that might even be like my secondary kind of filter, devotion and diligence because I

really love that. I think, um, When, what do you find when you're working with someone who is finding that they are in that out of balance phase? What do you reckon the key or what do you reckon the main things are that people have resistance around? Like you talked about one before, like I'm too busy for self care that always makes me think of like, you know, you need to meditate, you know, 10 minutes a day.

And if you're busy, you need to [00:54:00] meditate for an hour. Like that's always that paradox, isn't it? What do you reckon some of the other Like, why do we find this so fucking difficult sometimes? It's, 

Kate Codrington: it's, um, Shani Hugo Wurlitzer at grad school uses the, the image of a road train, and it takes a long time for a road train to stop, so they put on the brakes.

And it takes to, you know, a mile for them to stop. Yeah. So that we are, uh, we become used, you know, we become familiar with different nervous system states. 

Yeah, 

Kate Codrington: definitely. 

Yeah. Whatever 

Kate Codrington: that, whether it's hyper, you know, hyper aroused or whether it's, um, you know, more numb or frozen or, you know, with that's however much we might struggle with them.

That's our, that's familiar. And then to move out of those states. It takes, takes a long time for us to build capacity to, to have that capacity to move between. And again, there's parallels between what we were talking about earlier, that what we're looking for is more capacity to move between different states.

Yes. But that takes, that takes a while. That takes a while. So if you, if you're like, I'm, you know, I'm more of a charged nut job as I'm. Well, I definitely 

Kylie Patchett: have been in that mode 

Kate Codrington: for the last week. Yes. So for me, for, for, you know, all through my thirties, grounding was like so boring. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah, me too. I'd be like, I don't have time for that.

Why would I want to do that? It's like nothing's happening here. Yes. I'm not being very productive when I'm grounding. Yeah. I agree. 

Kate Codrington: Oh God. So that took me, that took me a long time to develop the, you know, decades to develop the capacity to be present with, with the small and the slow. So I think that, you know, it's not, I wouldn't class that as resistance, it's just expanding our capacity into different ways of 

Kylie Patchett: [00:56:00] being.

And having compassion for yourself when you find yourself off the tracks again, right? Buckets. Yeah. My. Balance, swimming pools, oceans, please. Oh, yes. So much. Oh, my goodness. Um, so I want to come back to the journal and how this can help people be devoted to self care because it sounds like, it sounds like another of the safe, soft places to land whilst you're.

I think it's really fascinating to hear that you've, you've, you've, but you've never really gotten to the point where you're stepping through something that can be challenging, but also has that flip side initiation and invitation kind of magic to it. Um, how would you describe it? If you were describing the self care journal to someone who is struggling and doesn't know that much about the whole perimenopause caper.

Um, like if you're talking to me in, um, what are we in now? 24 on my birthday in 2022, when I was on the floor, like bawling my eyes out. What would you say? I mean, obviously after I'd come to town, I'm not meaning that you are, you're not counseling me, but after that, what would you say about the journal?

Kate Codrington: It's a place where you can note how you were kind to yourself every day. 

Kylie Patchett: Oh, I love that. Yeah. 

Kate Codrington: So that might be normal, right? So, and that takes, you know, that sounds so simple. It's quite big. Um, our minds naturally go to how we failed. And so if I think about yesterday, oh, I was so stressed, and I didn't eat any protein at lunchtime and blah, blah, blah, but actually, if I really think carefully, I think, well, I let the lights in my office be quite dim on that last, um, the zoom call, the training, uh, the course that [00:58:00] I was doing in the evening.

And I didn't sit at my work desk with my ring light, with my face glued to my zoom screen. You know, I was lounging around on the sofa in the dark away from the screen. Yes. That was really kind. So what else I ate my, I, yeah, I let myself eat. Everything that I wanted for breakfast. All the things. I had a morning like that this morning.

I was like, I am ravenous today. Ravenous. Right, so at the time, I ate all the things and I, I sat in dim lights for training over a week. Different things over a week. If you look, once you look back over a month, you have all the way. Even if you, you know, in real life, you're not going to fit it in every day.

Forgive yourself for that straight, straight off, but you're going to have a whole library of ways that you're kind to yourself and you're, it's sneaky because you're actually rewiring your brain because our brains are plastic. You're training yourself to notice how kind you are already. 

Kylie Patchett: I 

Kate Codrington: just 

Kylie Patchett: love this because it's like a gratitude journal.

But it's noticing yourself. Like it's gratitude about how you're, you're holding yourself, which is, you know, same premise as a gratitude journal. It's like, notice the things, you know, the positive, juicy, nourishing things. But it's Use your faith. It 

Kate Codrington: is 

Kylie Patchett: devotion. Yeah. Oh, so good. I can't wait to get her in my hands, Kate.

So is it different this time? Did you have any, like, is, was a second book a thing for you in terms of like, will it be the same or will it have the same sort of success or any of that or not really? 

Oh,

Kate Codrington: well, I was so wildly excited. ambitious Second Spring, like that Jack Russell, that Jack Russell, oh [01:00:00] god I've never said this before, but that Jack Russell really wanted to be standing on top of the world, you know, I really, I did a lot of visualizations about the Sunday Times bestseller list, you know, and that, that, um, so there was a lot of, um, reality checking and learning about the publishing industry.

The reality of publishing and book publishing and adjusting expectations. 

Kylie Patchett: So were you able to be gentler then to yourself with? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Again, softer place too. Because it's always that tension between expectations and reality, right? If we, if we're not, um, 

Kate Codrington: not. Yeah. Do you want some more book process?

Kylie Patchett: Yes. Go, go, go. 

Kate Codrington: It was that winter. And then I thought, well, it's winter, then I have to sort of sit in the winter and be with the darkness. 

Yes. 

Kate Codrington: But of course, my fingers were like, I have to make something. Being with my kind of personality. So then I started and I started to write a book that would be, that was, bring the darkness seasonal awareness to everybody, regardless of gender.

So it's 

like a 

Kate Codrington: grand, very grand project. That's so needed. So needed, like a big world changing book. And I got to about 40, 000 words and my, my agent said, I showed it to my agent and she said, well, I expect we could probably find one of the smaller publishers and it would, it would really find its niche.

And I was like, Yes. 

Kylie Patchett: Moving 

Kate Codrington: across 

Kylie Patchett: the room as the air is deflating out of you. 

Kate Codrington: Yes. So that took me a while to recover from, um, because I still wanted it to be, to have those [01:02:00] qualities of being really accessible for ordinary people to get. So I did a pivot and I decided to, yes. use the perimenopausal niche in order to educate.

And so it was it was a compromise. So I, it absolutely serves people in that part of their life. Yes. And it also has a sort of subtext of making the seasons and seasonal care available to people who are not menstruating. Because there's quite, there's quite a lot of, um, knowledge in the mainstream and publicity about and understanding about the seasons of menstrual, of the menstrual cycle.

Yes, yes, yes. But then what my job, part of my, my, uh, task is to take that understanding and to translate it for everybody. Because it's still a really simple way of. understanding your self care and finding compassion and just Looking after yourself better. Yeah. And cutting out the overthinking. And if you, if you think about, if you think about it, like postmenopausal, if you, if you, if you finish your periods at 50, and you live to 85, you're going to have 35 years of living without, um, without the menstrual cycle as an anchor.

So understanding the seasons will help, will guide you happily. And there's also stuff in the journal about looking at. moon phases and how you respond to that. So that can then become your guide. So it's still doing the same thing, but within a smaller bit of the population, and hopefully it will reach more people because of that.

Kylie Patchett: Well, and also we also know that the, you know, the people that you are reaching are often the people that pass down the wisdom as well. So the ripple effect from that naturally impacts, you know, daughters, friends, husbands, et cetera. Um, [01:04:00] Oh, I just love this. I love, um, Thank you for being so generous with sharing the journey of the first in between book as well, because I think, I don't know, it's so easy when we're looking at someone who's done something monumental, but like writing a book and getting it published and everything to be like, Oh, you know, they must've just known what it needed to be from the start.

And it's just like, no, no, the truth talk behind this is that there's iterations and there's not failures. So I don't. You know, like missteps and pivots and redirecting and nudging and whatever. Um, and that is all actually part of the creative process. And I think, yeah. 

Kate Codrington: I mean, this, this, you know, speaks directly to your work.

There's a lot of gatekeep in the, in books and publishing industry, whether you're traditional publishing or self publishing, however you do it, there's a lot of gatekeeping. There's a lot of rigid armor, there's a lot of withholding of information. Yeah. Don't want to talk about the money. They don't want to talk about what they're doing, you know, it's really, really unhelpful.

Yeah, exactly. And I, I only was able to do, publish these two books. Because I had the support of other writers and people who knew and people who said, Oh, it's okay. And I had this experience. What was yours? And, you know, it's a, it's a community program process where you have, well, if you try and do it by yourself, it's, it will likely break you.

You have to lean in. Oh, a hundred 

Kylie Patchett: percent. Because all the shit that we've been talking about comes to the surface. And yeah, I see it time and time again. It's like this delivering or like midwifing your message to more people. Yeah, needs a circle of support, needs community. It needs people that are truth talking that have been there before as well to hold space for you to go, you know, I know you're disappointed or I know that this is your expectation and maybe it didn't happen, but you know, like that type of stuff is so [01:06:00] it's so necessary.

And I would say it's also so necessary, not just in books, but in birthing any work or body of work in the world. Um, if we're trying to do it by ourselves, we're not meant to be. We're not meant to be passing stories or passing wisdom individual to individual. Like that is just not how we are made. Um, so the collective, the collective and the ripple effect and that ability to, yeah, to, to have more reach without having to do it on our own is so much more healthy for our nervous system as well.

Right. Because like, we've just been talking about there's self care, but there's also like being able to go into a safe space and go, Fucking horrible at the moment. I don't like it. Like how, you know, and I don't know, I almost want to say like having that oven of a fellow game changes around you, you know, it's like, we've got you as well from an energetic perspective.

Um, Oh my goodness. Oh, 

Kate Codrington: so good. 

Kylie Patchett: So, um, here 2024. Do you have any sense of what Um, I don't mean what's next as in what else are you creating, but what will the downtime after this look like? Do you have anything that you crave right now that you're going to give to yourself or not? 

Kate Codrington: Yeah, I, I, I, Oh, I could show you, hang on, there's more time for my, my creative practice.

Okay. So the other thing I do is I stitch stories. I haven't got my camera. Oh my god. I didn't know you stitch stories. I knew that you did textile work, but I didn't know. Yeah, so this is a Yeah, she'll have received it. She'll have received it by the time this goes live. Oh good. Okay, I'm like, are we not, do you need me to blink this out?

It's for my friends. So I, I choose, [01:08:00] we choose garments that remind us of the friend and then I stitch the story of the friendship into the garment. That's, that's her, that's her face there. So I would like more time to explore story and stitch. And drawing. And I also I have a sort of, it's turned into a kind of, it kind of looks like cartoons, it's sort of a journaling, cartoon journaling practice.

So I kind of draw, draw my daily life. So I'd like, it is, it is, it's delicious, um, but I would like to, um, make them more elaborate, you know. So 

Kylie Patchett: does that just, you 

Kate Codrington: know, I have, 

Kylie Patchett: yeah, sorry, go on. No, I was going to say, does that just mean. Allowing more space for that, opening up more space. 

Kate Codrington: Yeah, and that requires more space for more color, more space, more iterations of that.

And there's lots of stuff that, you know, lots of those that I made. Um, like I did the cartoon one night of the kids next door were partying at 4am. And there's me lying in bed tossing and turning swearing and, you know, deciding and then I had to go down and tell them to be quiet and, you know, and then of course I was like so charged I didn't sleep the rest of the night.

And so I have a little, little story about that. And it's really funny. You know, it's like, Oh. Yep, surfing the waves of life over here. Yeah, and that, that, you know, that has some potential to be, you know, coloured and to expand it and, you know, just to make, yeah. So cool. 

Kylie Patchett: Do you have, um, have you ever, cause I know you've done so many different, like you've trained and mastered so many different modalities.

Have you got an art therapy lens as well that you look at? 

Kate Codrington: I did. My first education was in fashion. I have a fashion degree. Ah, gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. I do know [01:10:00] that from our first interview. 

Kate Codrington: Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that sort of bled all the creativity out of me. Yeah. 

Kylie Patchett: I just asked because I went, um, I just recently went to a retreat, um, by the beautiful Janet McGeever, whose work centers around the divine feminine through the lens of Tantra specifically for menopause.

So she trained under Diana Richardson, who's the. Um, one of the, yeah, um, thought leaders in Tantra and, um, Janet has an art therapy background. And so we did this process during the weekend that was profound, like so profound, um, through, yeah, drawing. And I was just like, Oh, there's an entry point here that I haven't experienced before.

That is quite, it was a huge, like both cathartic, but also there was a power of, of, of, of Yeah. The power of actually expressing in, you know, form and shape rather than words was a completely different experience. So, 

Kate Codrington: very, very, very cool. Yes. Messing with the ineffable. Try saying that when you've had a glass of wine.

Messing with the ineffable. Well, 

Kylie Patchett: luckily for me, I can't drink anymore. You can say it very 

Kate Codrington: clearly now. 

Kylie Patchett: Well, it's almost like normal daytime for you. Ah, you have been delicious to talk to as, as, as always, as always, as always. And I'm so glad that we got to reconnect about this new book whilst you're midwifing it.

And thank you. As always, for all of the nuggets of wisdom that you've just dropped on me and dropped on our community, because yeah, so many things, I have to go back in the transcript and pull out your precise quote around ambivalence, because that was one of the ones, and then the menopause coming, yeah, more into your cell.

Do you want to try again for the ambivalence? Is that what you're thinking? Your eyeballs were to the ceiling. No, okay. No, I don't remember what it was. I 

Kate Codrington: don't remember what it was, but I'm sure I would just, I would mess it up if I take another stab at it. Um, but [01:12:00] I, I just wanted to say that, um, the reason if I, if I, if I come up with anything interesting in our conversations, it's because you invite it and because you hold the space.

So there's something very, very You know, it's part of that community that we can hold space for each other to allow room for new, new things, new ways of expressing too. And that, that is a gift. So so much. Thank you. Appreciate it. And grateful. 

Kylie Patchett: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And we will definitely in the show notes, put the links to, um, the new book and also second spring and also our original episode, because that was golden.

I listened back like not last weekend, the weekend yet when we were Yep. Going to chat last week. And, um, yeah, just so many, I was like, Oh, there's another one. Oh, there's another one. Like the golden nuggets were flowing. So thank you once again, beautiful Kate. 

Kate Codrington: Pleasure. Thank you. 

Kylie Patchett: Bye bye.

There you go beautiful one, another delicious, juicy, truth talking episode with a Disruptor, Rebel or Revolutionary sharing the identity shifts. And the mess and the magic of leading right on the edge of your expansion and going first as a visionary leader, as a woman, creating a business and inviting people to completely new ways of learning, living, loving, and leading.

It is not lost on me that you have invested your time and your energy in listening to the show. I am so grateful for your beautiful heart, for the work that you do in the world, and I know that if you're here you are more than likely one of what I call the Mad Hatters. So the quirky, colourful, creative, out of the box, often neuro sparkly, paradigm shifters and thought leaders.

So I'm so grateful that you're here. If you loved this episode, which I'm sure you did, [01:14:00] please do me a favour and share it with someone else who needs to understand that their quirkiness and their full unapologetic self expression is more than enough, and in fact is the secret source to growing a wildly successful, abundant, nourishing, sustainable business.

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