This week on the podcast, we speak to TJ Matton and Bailey Jacobs from the Play Revolution. 

TJ is a social worker, psychotherapist, coach, and constructive misbehavior enthusiast. As founder of The Playful Revolution help people understand the neuroscience of play, integrate play into their healing, and reconnect with the power and potential of play. 

Bailey’s play is planning. Planning parties, planning meals, and planning adventures big and small with her friends and family. As the Chief Orchestrating Officer (COO) of The Playful Revolution, Bailey uses her directorial play prowess to oversee the company’s strategy, operations, and marketing. 

Fundamental to their work is play as a human right, play is a primal need that exists in all mammals and needs to be nourished and nurtured throughout a person’s lifetime.  

In this pod chat, we speak about:

• How our world and the invisible systems that rule all of them care about how much we produce, how much we consume and that we produce more producers and consumers - and definitely NOT about our joy!
• the different ages and stages that girls and boys lose their ability to play, and why 
• How play is the experience of cultivating joy in the everyday, and NOT In adding something else to the to-do list. 
• the different types of play and a simple 30 second play prompt that we do live in the interview
  

Find TJ, Bailey and the Playful Revolution - including their brandy new podcast here.

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It is high time you STOPPED all the polishing, pretending, curating, farcical half-truth telling, systems of oppression proliferating, totally unsustainable clusterfckery that most marketing / coaching / social media 'experts' espouse

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TRANSCRIPT - S5E11: How to Play Your Way to Healing with TJ Matton + Bailey Jacobs

TJ Matton: [00:00:00] But also one of my core beliefs in play is that we're not, and like, in healing, is that we're not meant, we can't heal our trauma alone, and we can't heal our play wounds alone.

Kylie Patchett: Welcome to the wild and finally fucking free podcast show. This is a space where truth talking gets real behind the scenes. Grit of the future humans is laid bare, and we are celebrating and sharing the real world stories of change agents, neuro sparkly people, the witchy wild women, the deep feelers, the unapologetic senses, the status quo challenges, and the huge hearted healers and helpers.

And guiding you through this wild ride of entrepreneurship and full heart led contribution to the world is me, your host, Kylie Patchett, aka KP. I am a proudly NeuroSparkly, natural born status quo challenger, and I thrive on helping disruptors, rebels and revolutionaries find their voices, amplify their message into the world, and harness their raw potential.

Alchemise it into unleashing your full potency. Not only will I be sharing the behind the scenes of some of the most amazing, most status quo challenging thought leaders, I'll also be lifting the veil behind my own business. In 2024, I 18x'd my monthly income. Still blows my mind to say that. And this year I am leaning into how joyful and fun it would be to shift from six figures to seven figures in a quantum shifting year, all through leading from my full unapologetic voice, my unleashed potency, and with my big wildly lit up heart leading the way.

Every single step of the way. So together with my guests, I am going to be sharing the mess and the magic. Spilling the tea on the identity shifts behind stepping into thought leadership. Breaking the ties that bind us.[00:02:00] 

Unlearning old patterns and reweaving brand new ways of living, loving, learning, and leading. We're here to break boundaries, reimagine what's possible, all while collapsing timelines and leading with joy, love, and our fiercest wild woman selves. This is not just a podcast. It is a rebellion. It is a revolution.

It is an invitation to join the Mad Hatter's collective movement. And by Mad Hatters I mean all the colourful, creative, gorgeous, world changing, out of the box humans out there. If you've ever longed to be wild and finally fucking free, this is your sign to lean in. Let's get started.

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited this morning. Number one, I'm recording in my new office. Very exciting. But number two, I'm talking to my beautiful friends, TJ Merton and Bailey Jacobs from the Play Revolution. How are you? 

TJ Matton: We're so happy to be here with you. 

Kylie Patchett: This is totally worth being up at five o'clock in the morning.

That feels so sweet. I'm actually seeing like the, we get light very early in the morning. So in front of me is daybreaking. So I feel like this is like perfect for our conversation. Yeah. New beginnings. So would you like to introduce yourselves for the people that don't already know about you and your spectacular work in the world, share a little bit about who you are, what you do.

And then I've got so many questions for you. This will probably need to be a three part episode. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. Um, I'll start. Um, so my name is TJ Matan. Um, I am on the eastern side of the U. S. in Maryland. Um, and I have been a trauma therapist studying kind of relational trauma and complex trauma for close to 15 years.

And I fell in [00:04:00] love with the neuroscience of play, um, about a decade ago. And I've been practicing it in my clinical practice for a long time. And a couple of years ago, I was like, I want this to be out there in the world. It needs to be unleashed. And so I started the Playful Revolution, and one of the first things I did was like ask the universe for a left hand woman.

Um, because as a neurodivergent, I can't stick to to do lists. I can't, I cannot get shit done without, like, Somebody who is, whose strengths are so different than mine. But also one of my core beliefs in play is that we're not, and like, in healing, is that we're not meant, we can't heal our trauma alone, and we can't heal our play wounds alone.

So I did not, by, and I did not want to be a solo entrepreneur. So I prayed to the universe, in my own hippie ways, and Bailey! We got a Bailey! And I got a Bailey! And I'm 

Bailey Jacobs: Bailey! I love it. I'm Bailey, I'm the co founder of The Playful Revolution with TJ, and, uh, I'm also on the East Coast of the United States in Raleigh, North Carolina, um, and yeah, I, in many ways, I consider myself TJ's first follower, that first person who kind of, like, jumped right in and drank the Kool Aid, if you will, um, and just.

Jumped wholeheartedly into play, right? I've been practicing while TJ has been doing play work with clients for close to a decade now. I've been In our kind of intentional mindful play framework for almost two years and just the transformations I felt in my own life, my own relationships, it, you know, your joy is a revolution and your experience of joy matters.

Right. And just the transformation that's taken place in our own, both of our relationships as business partners, but then just being able to share, you know, words are so much of where my joy comes from. I have a A background in corporate comms doing writing words for other [00:06:00] people and so being able to kind of reclaim my love of story my love of writing in play but also in this work has just been so just wonderful to experience and I'm so excited to be here with you Kylie and sharing this.

Kylie Patchett: Oh, I mean, really, we should just out the fact that there is a hashtag that says everyone needs a Bailey because we met through an amazing mastermind and like so often in the chat, everyone needs a Bailey because it's so beautiful to see two women come together with this. It's like dedication to a revolution and you know, that is a very, that's very clearly and consciously chosen as a revolution.

This is a revolution that you're building and to see you guys co create and just bring your beautiful strengths to the table and allow each other to. Do the thing that they most love to do has been such a joy to watch. So thank you for being such a beautiful example of partnership. Um, yeah, and I actually wanted to, as you were talking Bailey, I thought about, um, one of the, I mean, I just love your.

Entire email series. And especially over the holidays when you were doing this, like, you know, mom needs to be, you know, mom's joy needs to be centered. It doesn't need to be mom creating joy for everybody else, which is how we often sort of run things. But one of the things you talked about was your first like play date together, but with your partners and how that, do you want to just share that story?

Cause I think that's such a beautiful. example of how play can be utilized to me. It's such a beautiful thing. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. Um, Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that's fun about Bailey's and my relationship is like we weren't actually friends before we were colleagues here. Um, we know one another through my sister.

Um, and my sister loved Bailey and I loved Bailey through my sister. Um, and Bailey loved me through my sister, but we didn't really know [00:08:00] each other. Um, so when we started this work, you know, we have had to build a collegial relationship, a friend relationship. We've had to undo systems of like productivity and like hype.

Like we've had to undo so many of the frames that I think Bailey kind of came from specifically in the corporate comms world. And then for me kind of coming from like, um, from a health and wellness world of the therapy is like undoing individualism and undoing this concept of fixing and instead like kind of amplifying gifts.

And so we've had to like really learn and unlearn a lot together, right? There's a lot of iterations in our partnership, but this included in like, you know, um, even when I went into my, like my, I was asking financial advice and I was like, I want to hand over half my business to this person. And my, like my, Money, people were like, uh uh, just hire her.

I was like, uh uh. I need her to have half. I want, like, because it just gives a totally different energy. 

Kylie Patchett: But along 

TJ Matton: the way, like, our husbands have kind of, we're both really, you know, we shouldn't call ourselves lucky, but in the modern marital dynamics, we are very lucky to have very, two very feminist husbands, like, who love their wives, love to see them, like, In their own gifts in abundance and like are so like just both of our partners are so wonderful and we're so like we both and are 

Bailey Jacobs: actively embodying the work in their own way.

On top of being supportive of us are just in on this. There are first 

TJ Matton: followers. Yes. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: So they hadn't met each other right so like we all went out and 

Bailey Jacobs: many, we hadn't met each other's partners either. Right. That's a big risk. 

TJ Matton: Yeah, 

Bailey Jacobs: definitely. 

TJ Matton: So we all went out to dinner, you know, we all went, we, Bailey and I went to this business, uh, retreat in Vegas.

Uh, [00:10:00] and, um, we, uh, and like, it was just like, it almost, it felt like a first date. It felt like a first date. That's what it felt like. It really was. I mean, like, you know, and, um. So we all like, you 

Bailey Jacobs: know, what happens if we don't like each other, right? What happens if I find her husband so annoying, right? Like, so much of our 

TJ Matton: business, you know, like, which version was he 

Bailey Jacobs: gonna be?

Our business relationship is so intimate. We spend so much time together, TG and I. We've built this remarkable trust. But It is this blending of the families, right? Of like, okay, here's the next level of like, will we like each other's husbands? Cause sometimes husbands suck, right? And honestly, it 

TJ Matton: makes or breaks, it makes, it makes or breaks female relationships, whether Yeah.

And that. 

Bailey Jacobs: So we, we sat down to this beautiful fancy dinner and I just threw out to Brandon and I, my husband and I love to play this game, um, that's named after my college roommate. It's called the Dubik rule where you do not look at the menu until you have a cocktail in your hand that named after her father.

And that's his rule when he wants to kind of relax into a meal. He's not going to be rushed. Right. So he wants his cocktail in hand and it's, I mean, I love the rule, right? But it forces you to slow down. Yeah, but you know as tj kind of brought through in the story that she told like that's also super anxiety inducing to like remove The comfort of being able to, of like not, because oftentimes you can, if you're uncomfortable, you can look at the menu and not make eye contact.

Right. Or not make awkward conversation. So I kind of thrust us into a new paradigm. When you talk about the 

TJ Matton: next thing, like what are we going to order? Right? Like you're already in the next thing. Exactly. And so this rule. Right? Like, yeah, keep going. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, and so we, you know, as we're all picking our cocktails, uh, we come across a warm consomme cocktail that was made with warm beef.

Like, warm beef broth. [00:12:00] Beef consomme. Yeah, in Sherry. It was delicious. 

TJ Matton: I loved it. And 

Bailey Jacobs: so but in this act of all of us kind of being repulsed but intrigued, and then we decided to get a cocktail for the table. And in the by in this act of engaging in our curiosity engaging in something new. We all of a sudden weren't awkward anymore, right?

We all of a sudden weren't relying on like the societal crutches that often hold us back in many ways, right? We weren't looking at our phones. We weren't talking about the weather. We were all engaged in a collective experience around something as small as a drink, right? But it was new and novel and intriguing and a little weird, but like amazing, right?

Yeah. And it just broke. It broke us all open and like it is this like powerful example of like what play does in active relationship right how it can oh 

TJ Matton: totally 

Bailey Jacobs: how it connects while also breaking down walls like it just because it brings forth your authentic self right it brings Forth. You, there's like a rawness and vulnerability in play that you have to be present and makes it so that you can actually connect with people.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And at the end of the day, we adored each other's husbands. . Yay, . Yay. You a good husbands. We had wonderful. 

TJ Matton: Yes. 

Bailey Jacobs: They 

TJ Matton: all got 

Bailey Jacobs: a 

TJ Matton: pass. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yes. We all had a wonderful time. Uh, like a luxurious three hour meal. It was spectacular. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was, it was definitely like peak 

TJ Matton: meal moments. Mm-hmm

But yeah, like, so if we talk about like, even like, you know, and again. I, like, I want to dive into, like, a piece of our play research here. Yeah, yeah, go for it, go for it, go for it. And, like, kind of help amplify a couple things from this story. Yeah. So, one is that we often think about play as this external thing, right?

This experience of hobbies, um, this thing you go out and do. And, actually, it is an internal experience, right? And it's this place in the body where, like, um, Where, like, kind of, there's enough safety, right, but the risks are low [00:14:00] enough for you to do, like, do something new, right? So, like, you can't play if you're not safe, right, and you can't play if the risks are too high, right?

Yes. And, um, so part of, like, kind of going into the dinner is that the risks felt really high, right? Like, it was a very high risk scenario for, for me. And so, in some ways, like, play begin, like, play inherently brings play, like, brings power, changes power dynamics. Um, because you can't play if, like, you know, again, like, if I am an, if I, like, if I am an adult doing, uh, playing soccer, right, like, I, or football, like, I can't play against a three year old.

Right? Like, that's not a good play dynamic, right? So, play, like, play requires a power balance. Yes. And Where, like, safety and risk are, like, kind of, like, like, running up against each other. 

Kylie Patchett: Oh, 

TJ Matton: this is discombobulating my brain. I love this. I love this. And so one of the things is, like, you know, a couple of the external things that we did for play in that, that shifted and created an internal play experience, is, like, one of the first things that we did was, like, we kind of set the frame of the game, right?

Like, we're going to rumble. We're going to get into this together. Like, we knew there was a frame and the goal of the play Yeah. was a sense of created, like, Connect like connection like that was the goal of the game right again part of play is take part of Re cultivating play is taking it out of this like done checkbox and into like a cultivated like kind of more nonlinear Place.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, nobody Nobody would have known if we met that goal from an external standpoint except checking in on each one of our bodies, right? Like only we knew if we met our play goals, right? Yeah, 

Kylie Patchett: yeah, yeah. 

TJ Matton: And then we created external things like, [00:16:00] um, We're gonna, we're gonna have this game where you can't open the menu until, right?

So that external rule, because a rule, an external rule, can make or break new structures of play. Yes. It can, right? So this external rule, we're not, we're not opening the menu, broke a pattern, right? Yes. Broke a, like broke a pattern that created space for new risks to be taken, right? Okay. Yes. And so therefore that's like, when we set that rule, it, it created a space.

To play a new game. Yeah, right to play the game of connection. 

Kylie Patchett: And it forces you. Sorry, if I'm just following like I'm imagining myself in this scenario, like even the fact that I can't open the menu makes me. Awkwardly, but definitely more present because I'm like, Oh, I actually have to be here. I have to, I have to feel how I'm feeling and interact and really notice how everybody else is in this scenario as well.

So 

TJ Matton: everybody's awkward. Exactly. Like it's not personal, right? Like and so then all of a sudden from this external rule, everybody's on the same page Yes. Of playing for togetherness, right? Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah. The second external rule or external play we did was trying this new drink, right? Yes. 'cause play is a balance of novelty and novelty.

Like novelty and ritual, right? 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: And when you look at the fact that we had new people, like we had this very high, for me, high intensity. Yep. New people, new dynamic. Like, this kind of novelty was really high risk. 

Kylie Patchett: So 

TJ Matton: then, we actually collectively took low risks together through trying this drink.

Diffused the intensity of the risk, right? Like, oh, we can all do new things together, right? Yes, yeah. So again, play is this place of like, what do we bring [00:18:00] in externally that cultivates new internal and ex like, takes us back into the flow of creative living. 

Kylie Patchett: I love that you're like as you're like you're using your hands to explain this just for anyone that's not watching the video that's like this like figure of eight sort of thing it's like folding in the external to to to shift the internal.

As you're talking, I mean there's so many things I want to pull out I think, for starters, you're talking about like recultivating play and I'm like. How have we lost play in the first place like that? I feel like that is like this root question that I want to come to. But also we like before we started recording, I said to you guys, like, how are you going?

Like. America is a little bit wild at the moment, right? It's like the wild west or not even, um, less law than the wild west. But, and I said, you know, how you guys, and Bailey's answer was, it's really made me double down on this play being like a, it, it's like essential nourishment for me to be able to be okay in amongst what's going on.

So, I don't know, choose whichever one you want to start with. I think probably cultivation, like why did we lose it in the first place? How are we trained not to play? 

TJ Matton: So I think one of the, um, I think one of the things to maybe start with that feels like an important education point is that play is a primal drive.

It's a homeostatically driven drive in this. Yes. Meaning that we like, like sleep hunger, uh, and thirst are homeostatically driven drives as is play. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: So we are either play nourished or play deprived. Right. But we are never void. Like we're void of play, but it gets sort of repressed. And, um, like, Ensnared and lashes [00:20:00] out.

Yeah. It is seen like oftentimes, like the way I work in my own pra like mental health practice is like looking at where people's mental health symptoms align with their ab like with their play drives. 

Kylie Patchett: Mm-hmm. 

TJ Matton: Um, and so I think that's one thing to, like, when we talk about like, how do we re cultivate play mm-hmm

Um. Is understanding that like, play is again not this external thing we do, it's a cultivated, like, you can sleep and not rest. You can do hobbies and not feel, like, fulfilled. Yes, you can. You can go to socialize and not feel connected, right? And again, play is, like, the way we teach play is from this internal cultivation standpoint.

And I think one of the primary ways we lose it is by giving external frames, like external things, so much weight and power and validity. Right? So like, at least, you know, you ask somebody like, Oh, how was your run? And they're like, Oh, great. I ran five miles today. Right? That doesn't actually answer the question.

Right? Like, how was your run is like, Oh, it was so wonderful. I felt breath in my chest and my body was in motion. Right? So we give a lot, you know, one of the ways we lose it is simply by kind of like the structure of externalization and the highlighting of what do you do? How did it work, versus like asking people for their internal experience of a moment.

Well, 

Bailey Jacobs: and let's just, sorry TJ to jump in. No, I wanted 

TJ Matton: to kick it to you. 

Bailey Jacobs: That's as intended by society, right? Absolutely. Even that framing of we give to external, like no, those external pressures are on us from a young age, right? Yeah, 100%. And it's about, you know, when we talk about the run, for example, right?

Well, that's productivity culture, right? Yeah. That's what I was about to say. That's the output, right? We are from a young [00:22:00] age that it's the output, not the process, not the feeling that matters, right? It is fitting into societal standards that matter, right? It's conforming in a, you know, capitalistic white supremacist society.

That's what matters. And so over time. Your play is just because society doesn't care about your joy, right? So over time it's just slowly and slowly whittled away as you continue to do what's right by conforming and You know, so like when we talk about recultivating play Sometimes shame of oftentimes shame and grief will come up, but it absolutely always Always, but people need to understand, this is like 20, 30 years in the making here, right?

Yeah, exactly. This is not something you're going to undo because we've been conditioned to act this way. We are supposed to act this way, which is why it's revolutionary to step out of that system. And to reclaim, Reclaim that internal experience. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. And TJ, what are the, 

Bailey Jacobs: Sorry. No, 

Kylie Patchett: sorry. I just, as you were talking, like to me, as soon as you gave the running example, I'm like, Oh my God, it's, it's all the same pattern.

Right? Like, it's so funny as I'm writing this book about disruption, I'm like, this is all the same fricking shit. Like I've talked to people in the beauty industry, like about, you know, body imagery about, you know, dealing with trauma, like all of these different things. And it's like the key overlapping issue is a system of oppression that measures us in our output and our productivity.

And teaches us that our worth is connected to those things. And so, yes, everything else gets devalued. And even when you're saying, like, you know, it's 20 and 30 years in the making, I would argue it's generational by the time, like, because I'm just thinking about, I never saw a well resourced, playful woman, ever.

TJ Matton: Absolutely. 

Kylie Patchett: That's a lot of what 

TJ Matton: we talk about. That's a lot of what we talk about. And like, that play, playfulness, like while it is a primal drive, right? It's also a skill, it's also a privilege, right? Yes. Um, it [00:24:00] is not like, You know, like, and we talk about, yeah, like, it's a play, it's a, I mean, it's a skill, it's a privilege, it's a human right, but it's also something that we learn is passed, like, is passed down, right, and we have generations and generations of both for men and women, the loss of their playful selves and in different ways.

And, um, and like not knowing really what that looks like in an everyday body, right? And again, this is a big part of why we really, you know, I struggle to kind of teach people, like, give people, like, for as much as I've taught play, I struggle giving people, like, play homework. And like, like things to go do because we are so focused on this, like the intellectual and somatic experience of play.

 So, you know, one of the things we were just talking about is like kind of the impact of like systemic, like pressure performance, perfectionism and how our culture like values more like definitive play, right?

Like things that are out there, things that you can prove. Right. And similarly, like, you know, this can come in things like, um, like Legos, right? Like where you have something to show. Puzzles where you have something to show. Um And we have this idea of kind of like, this kind of closed ended, like, finite play that has a clear open, middle, and end.

And then you can kind of often hand it to somebody as like, proof. Versus more infinite play, where like, the game is ongoing, and ongoing, and ongoing. And it's incredible, and while both play is [00:26:00] very dependent on the internal person's experience, infinite play, rarely has something to show for it. Right. And so it requires us to listen to somebody and to believe them.

And I don't think we're great at that as a culture, right? Like we don't believe people, we don't listen to people's stories, right? Like, tell me what that was like for you. Yeah. Right. And like, cause we also, we often like kind of. If we do share that, it's like, oh, prove it. Like, why do you think that happened?

Right? We immediately shifted to intellectualizing. And again, like, prove to me that it was a good experience for you. Why was that such a good experience? Like, I don't fucking know. It just was. Yeah, exactly. It was 

Bailey Jacobs: better than the productive things you could have been doing. Like, oh, you spent all day wandering the woods?

Like, oh, I spent the day cleaning. Right? Like, you oughta Yeah, like, how 

TJ Matton: long did you walk? 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. I had like four piles of laundry I had to do. Like people automatically start being like, well, what could they have been doing with their time? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And can want to put it into a box.

And that's the thing. 

TJ Matton: And so like finite play, like culturally we teach a lot more finite play, like, you know, um, choreographed dance classes, um, sporting events that are skill driven. Arts and crafts, um, like a lot of this is very hands on, more finite play versus like things, again, that like kind of lean into the infinite play framework, um, that doesn't have a clear start or an end, it doesn't necessarily have proof, it's like something that is just so felt, and we don't see this kind of, we don't see these kind of leaders emerging, and I think in our culture, I don't think we see, um, we don't like nourish this style of play, right?

Like my, I have a daughter who's 11 and she struggles with reading and not necessarily because of any specific disability that we know of, but. You know, she's very good at reading, but she does not read on her [00:28:00] own. And it really drives my family crazy, because they're all readers. But I'm not much of a reader either, to be honest.

And I asked her, I was like, has anybody ever taught you to enjoy reading? And she's like, I don't understand what you mean. Because she can deconstruct sentences. She can do grammar. She can do main character. Like, she can structurally diagnose a story. But she's never been given, like, a prompt that's like, What was your favorite part of the book?

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: What did it feel like to lose yourself to that character? Yes. Like we never, yeah, like we don't ask those open ended cultivating questions of students or of learners or of players, right? So we really teach people in a much, in a very structural linear way that very quickly just like extinguishes that internal, like.

Like self languaging and self exploring, um, that is so necessary to keep in play alive. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. As you're talking, like, I'm just like, every, every single time I have a new conversation around these types of things that we're deconstructing. I'm like, Oh my God, it's just more ranking. Like we value from the chin up more than we value from the chin down or wait, you know, for many, many, many hundreds of years.

And so therefore. We don't ask questions that lead people to, you know, lead our children as parents or teachers or whatever, to languaging what this feels like, because it's not even valued in the first place. Like, I'm like, Oh my God. 

TJ Matton: But one of the things like, and like, you know, one of the things that you talked about that I kind of want to like, just check in with like the three of us, because I'm kind of curious about this, like, are you having fun right now?

Kylie Patchett: I am. Cause I love to be intellectually playing. How do you know that? How do you know that? Uh, expansiveness in my body. That's how I actually feel. I have always said, like, I feel like my soul is wagging its tail when I'm doing something that I'm enjoying. Yeah. [00:30:00] Um, that's how I feel actually, as you're talking, I'm, I'm working, I joined, um, Radical healers to do some more study and energy work.

And one of the kind of introductory sort of, um, I guess it is a play thing, um, is, is about choosing three things that you'll like commit to each day. And one's like a deconstructing of something. One's a constructing of something and one's a neutral activity. And my neutral activity, I purposely chose.

It's just getting my yoga mat out to play on it. And as a yoga teacher who has all of the structure and the flow and the, you know, this is what you do next, or this is whatever, Oh my God, it triggers the absolute fuck out of me. But it's one of the best things that I've challenged myself to do because as soon as I'm there.

I love it. And I start just breathing and moving in whatever way feels good. I'm like, Oh, hello, you here. I am here. I am hello. And I'm like, Oh my God, like I'm committing to this 10 minutes a day, but. I, I would have, I would have spent decades of my life with no felt sense of what was going on here. That's astounding to me.

And it makes me, yeah, it just makes me sad. Like I have a lot to say about. The education system in general, anyway, being Neuro sparkly, having kids that are Neuro sparkly. Like, I just don't think that we are helping the most, like, I don't feel like our learning systems foster people to be individuals.

That's, you know, like we, we all know that. Um, but yeah, I'm curious about the, like, when do we lose? Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to, 

TJ Matton: I want to, I want to. Before I answer this question, how we lose play, but I want to ask Bailey, like, are you having fun? Cuz and and then I want to tell you why I'm asking this question.

Yeah. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, so I I feel very excited, right? [00:32:00] And I feel, I always feel that in my heart, like a very, just like glow almost, right? And like a sparkle that comes from like being engaged in play, um, always just kind of, it's like a vibration and a liveness that like, kind of just like kind of radiates, right? Um, and it can be seen as excitement or just like happiness, but yeah, I'm loving being with you two wonderful women.

Absolutely. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. And, you know, and I think one of the reasons I asked this is I think one of the ways we lose play is that we get a very specific idea of what it looks like, right? Versus again, asking what it feels like, right? And And like the, you know, for me, like, I feel all of that warmth, but I can also feel the fear of like using my voice, bringing my story and my work across the ocean.

Yeah. Right? Like, am I going to get all the right points? Is this going to welcome the right people? Right? Like, you know, so and again, in this place where like, it feels so good to be with people that like, are the right playmates, but it doesn't take the risks of the play away. Right. And I think one of the ways that women in particular lose play is we get this image that we have to be this like very extravagant joker, funny.

Theatrical. Yeah. Like, way, when again, that is just one style of play. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: It is not like everybody's play experiences. So one of the ways, again, to begin to recultivate and reclaim play is like, just throw the fucking story that you have about what it is away. Like just throw it out the fucking window, right?

Like it's wrong. Right? Yeah. If you, if you have the word play come up and you have a very specific like book cover to it. Yes. Like. It's not, it's not, that's not it, 

Kylie Patchett: right? Like, 

TJ Matton: any sort of sense of expectation that feels like a threat to the body, or the body can't see itself within, it's just not the right definition.

Because again, play is this [00:34:00] primal drive, like you are meant to be playful. 

Kylie Patchett: And 

TJ Matton: part of recultivating the play experience is reclaiming your own internal language, your own internal experience, like, and writing your own, like, narrative of what play is. For you and your body and in your life and in your community, you know, so I've asked this question because like I don't think that it looked necessarily like when people listen to these kind of podcasts, they're like, well, why aren't they playing?

Why aren't they laughing more? And like, and again, if all of us are enjoying ourselves, all of us feel engaged. and enjoyment, then we're in the play state because that's what play gets to find out is like feeling engaged with enjoyment as it's kind of like central compass experience. But in that, in that level of engagement comes with like a sense of like, oh, this feels a little risky to be alive like this, right?

Like, this is what the books taught me, right? 

Bailey Jacobs: Outside of the books. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. 

Bailey Jacobs: It's a dropping into presence, right? And I think that's also where a lot of the risk comes in, right? We have so many protective patterns in place, right? Just from existing in society. And I think that it's, um, that aliveness and that being present and connected can, is, has vulnerability with it too.

Yeah. 

Kylie Patchett: 100%. Actually, you're making me. 

TJ Matton: Oh, sorry. Go ahead. 

Kylie Patchett: Oh, I was, I was just, as you're talking, Bailey, what I'm, Being reminded of is that we, I had a coaching call with my mastermind the other day, and we were talking about this self monitoring part that is often, you know, particularly when we are not, you know, you know, true authentic self, like fully, you know, in ourselves, like this monitoring part that's like, am I doing this right?

Am I this? Am I that? Am I whatever? And as you're talking, I'm like, Oh yeah. I, when I'm not in my authentic self, I'm not able to access things from a, like a, a true enjoyment or like, I'm, it's like, I [00:36:00] can't squeeze the juice out of things because there's this part of me that is like monitoring whether I am doing it right.

Um, and TJ, like about the risk, like. I definitely had, um, like I haven't been podcasting for a few weeks now. And even just thinking about like starting, I'm like, Oh, have I, am I going to be like, you know, I love podcasting, but am I going to be able to just slide back into interviewing that type of thing?

And I'm like, well, it doesn't matter. And I think then that when you were saying about safety before, because I know you two like quite well, so there's a sense of safety of like, Oh yeah, I can feel this riskiness and the edge of. You know, that little bit of nervousness, but still be present and enjoy because I do have that safety, whereas if it was two people that I didn't know, more than likely there would be less, there would be less presence going on.

TJ Matton: And can I pull something out that you just said that is, I think, interesting. You know, talking about like, oh, am I going to be able to like, slide right back into podcasting, like, oh, it doesn't matter. Like, it does matter. And like, that's why you're worried about it. Like, that's why you're monitoring it.

Because like, you want to be a good storyteller. You want to be a good story cultivator. Right? So like, I think there's also this kind of like, shift that we've done in like, pushing away the monitor. Right? But like, actually that internal monitor is also often the part that pushes us towards play, right?

It's the part that says like, this isn't working, 

Kylie Patchett: right? Like this isn't 

TJ Matton: working. Something's not clicking. Like I'm not feeling my joy, right? Like it's a puzzle, right? Like we have to have an intellectual player involved in order to cultivate new patterns, right? Because like, that's a kind of sense of self leadership, right?

So like, it's not about like kind of. Getting rid of the monitor, but like identifying like the quality of monitoring, right? The kind that like encourages us and inspires us. And again, I think it's really easy for us Like we've kind of easily as a culture just been like, oh like this doesn't matter like it's going to be fine But like a lot of the time it does matter in play is like it's okay for things to fucking [00:38:00] matter 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah, 

TJ Matton: like it's okay for you to feel nervous That you might not slide in because like this shit's important to you.

Kylie Patchett: Yes, very much. Yeah. 

TJ Matton: You know, so it's a big place, also this place of like linking self with meaningfulness. Yes. What are you going to say, Bailey? 

Bailey Jacobs: I was gonna say, it's also helps you understand the, the monitors that matter, right? Because I think for so many people, the voice, the, the self monitoring is external voices of the things.

The measuring. Yes. Yeah. Is the measuring, is the, you know, the productivity, those of. Of like the right way to be, the right way to do, the right way to feel, those monitorings, play helps you cast those off, right? It helps you relearn. It makes the invisible rules visible in a way where you can start to relearn what actually feels good to you because it is an internal experience.

You're tapping into self in a really powerful way that isn't prescribed by external people or external systems, um, which allows you to know when the mo like when that voice, that monitoring is you or when that voice, that monitoring is bullshit from other sources. Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. You know, so one of the things I wanted to, like, also kind of circle back to, like, you know, as we talk about these pieces is like, how do we lose play?

Right. And we've talked about some of like the structural pieces and like, you know, because it happens in all like all different levels, like, right, like cultural systemic issues. educational issues, community issues, family systems issues, intergenerational issues, and then like issues like sort of also within self, right?

Because like one of the times that girls lose play is from between the ages of eight and eleven. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Right? And the research talks about girls losing play at this time because there is such a high drive for community and belonging at this age. So they start to deprioritize self and increase the priority, like increase the importance of.

Belonging and [00:40:00] cohesion and group, um, which isn't unhealthy at like in, like, you know, we need to learn this skill, right? Um, and it's a time that when we are fine, when we aren't teaching actually people the balance of like self versus. other versus together, right? Like right now, each of us is having our own individual play experience.

Yes. That we are bringing into a collective experience. Yes. Through the medium of a podcast, right? So there's a, there's levels and layers to the play. And so girls lose play between eight and 11 because, um, one, there's a really strong need for community that often means compromising the individuality in order to Fine belonging and this is just developmentally necessary, right?

but does mean that there is a loss of individual play without necessarily a Cultivation of good group play dynamics, right? Because this is also the age in which performance and perfection turn on for girls, right? Because intergenerationally this is the age that girls would start Like tending to the house.

Yeah, right. They became they become parentified They're the expectations go out like through the wazoo for no reason. Yep. Yeah, um like and so Kind of within the family systems like culture would like play was lost within our education system play gets lost This is a time where at least in the US they start actively grading Versus like grading being not mattering.

Um, and like culturally the rise of expectations. And then in this age, the push for girls to get good at something, to look good, to beep, like to perform. Yeah. And so it's not necessarily wrong that [00:42:00] we lose our individual, like that. We move into collective experiences, but it's the loss of balance where every system is saying lose yourself to these standards, right?

Oh my lord. And this is something I see, and this is where I, you know, and then I'm going to come back and answer this question a little bit about like how do trauma and play blend together. But I also want to talk about um, boys and their loss of play because I think this is really essential. That we understand that boys lose play at 5 and 15 and these are often the ages in which they boys are encouraged to Step into more powerful dynamics of themselves.

Yeah, right like they're encouraged to minimize their emotions and their vulnerability at 5 and they are Encouraged to become like kind of pursuers and daters and like Men at 15. Yeah. Right? Man up. Man up. And so these ages at 5 and 15 are often like losses of play for boys because, and it has to do with power.

Um, power dynamics and being pushed into overpowering or into power as a structure versus empowerment that would come from within. And part of the importance of play dynamic is that actually nobody has power. 

Kylie Patchett: Right? The power is 

TJ Matton: in the collective. It's, like, it is, there's an openness to receiving and, like, letting play be moved by the medium you're in or by the person you're with.

That, like, I'm never, within a play state, you're never certain. Like, you're never sure. Because, like, that is part of opening the body up and the heart up to the play experience. And men have been pushed into really high standards of performance, power. Like, [00:44:00] knowing, expertise, um, that is horrific on their capacity to build vulnerable embodied relationships that are necessary in our cultural health and to play, um, and, and so men and women are wounded differently based on gender dynamics and at different ages.

And I think it's very easy for us to focus on. Women's play, but like, again, we're all in the same fucking game. Yeah. Like, we're all in this game together. Everybody's suffering together from this loss of play. Like, and when we cultivate our own play, we give permission to our people to become different versions of themselves.

Yes. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I want to, I want to pull a thread that was one of the first things that you said about you. You said about like, if we don't satisfy the drive for play, it comes out in different ways. And you just put out a post on Instagram about like the anger drive. And I'm like, I really want to go down this track of like, if we don't satisfy this need, like this primal need, same as sleep or, you know, thirst, et cetera, what can happen?

Like, what, what do we see at the end game of this? Like deprivation really is what we're talking about. 

TJ Matton: I mean, I can answer that, but I'd be interested, like, what do you think? When you look back as you're cultivating play, as you're recultivating play in yourself, like what did it look like? Uh, depression, anxiety, 

Kylie Patchett: soothing with food, um, being passive aggressive, picking fights with my husband.

Yeah. Lots of really dodgy, unhealthy emotionally. Yeah. Shitty ways of trying to get rid of whatever was in me. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. Your brain needed to engage in something, right? Our brains need activity. Our brains need engagement. And when you play, you are engaging your brain, your body, your heart, your soul. The system for your enjoyment.

You're orienting towards joy. But if you aren't being [00:46:00] intentional about that, if you're not actively playing, you'll start orienting towards other things, right? Your brain will start using that engagement energy towards. you know, anxiety or stress or. Yeah, it'll 

TJ Matton: engage in people like engage acting things versus like with things, right?

So Bailey, for you, like what were some of the signs that now that you've been in play for a couple of years, like what are some of the things that you look back on? You're like, Oh, that was play. Separation. 

Bailey Jacobs: Oh, yeah, anxiety and control, right? The like hyper fixation on needing to do things a certain way or hyper plan for things, right?

I have a very natural directorial play, which means that I enjoy planning. I enjoy envisioning things. Um, but I would hyper do that, right? I would hyper focus, right? And I would have a lot of anxious thoughts. Uh, We were trying to plan for things that I have no control over. I think that's one of the things that's going on right now is we are all so hyper focused on literally things we cannot control because we have no other outlets to push our energy.

Right? And then, the things I could control, I was holding so tightly. So tight. So tight that like I needed to do these these certain ways and in many ways it would be things like travel or like a concert experience or a cooking experience. They needed to go the exact right way or else I would not feel good, right?

This is, yeah, this is, this is the only path 

TJ Matton: I had. That's another really great reason like why to take play out of, like not that external things aren't important, but like if we're not cultivating an internal playful place, we give so, like all of those external things are too risky. They matter too much.

You know, like, they matter too much. So for me, like, my play Deprivation, like Bailey said, she's a little bit of a planner. I love being in my body. I've always really loved sports. I've loved playing, being really physical. And so my play deprivation looked like kind of getting really obsessed with certain sports.

Um, often [00:48:00] to the point of chronic injury, um, like pretty horrific injuries of like overuse of my body. 

Kylie Patchett: I was also 

TJ Matton: an alcoholic and like used like alcohol as this way to like, like feel free in my body. Um, and so like those, As I re cultivated play, like, one of the first places that I, like, really started to, like, hone in on was, like, what engagement and enjoyment felt like in my body.

And, like, so that, because, like, and really kind of, really challenging this part of me that would lash out through and, like, kind of get obsessed with certain things to the point of losing myself. Because that's an, like, that's a thing that's interesting about play is that you lose yourself to play, but you don't actually lose, right?

Play is regenerative. We're like, yeah, again, you don't always know the purpose of it. You don't know why you're following your impulse. You don't know why it's like you're getting called in this direction, but it cultivates a sense of trust in yourself over time that like no play gets lost, right? Like no play goes unused, but we are not in control of its use or of its growth.

Um, and so like for me, like, yeah, my play deprivation looked a lot like, um, like very highs and lows in my emotional landscape because I, and a lot of really intense physical out, like. Outlets that would cause harm for me. Yeah. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: You know, so I, again, like people's different, you know, for you, like, you know, and all of these are things that are signs of play deprivation.

And when we look at how play can be seen in mental health symptoms, you know, we've got a DSM between us. Yeah, we have. Yeah. You know, which at this point, like when I go, I don't carry a diagnosis. which I'm not saying as [00:50:00] like a, like, I do carry an ADHD diagnosis, but like I've been diagnosed as PTSD, chronic depression, anxiety, bipolar, right?

Like I've had a strong history of diagnoses and not a single person in my current clinical history asked me if I was playing or like explored play deprivate, like play deprivation versus nourishment in my clinical frame. Right. This was something I found in my own work and. And I don't, I, I, I don't know if I have heard of anybody being asked, what is your play experience like?

I hear people being asked, like, what do you do for fun? But that's, again, not the same as play. No, 

Kylie Patchett: no. 

TJ Matton: Play is different than fun. Like, fun is, emerges from play. But that's not The on ramp for people. That's an expectation. 

Kylie Patchett: And it's also a stupid thing to say to someone who's, like, chronically depressed. Go and have fun.

Like, when you're chronically depressed, you have no Like, 

TJ Matton: um Even now, as somebody who's, like, all in play, like, when somebody says that to me, I'm like, oh my god, get the fuck out of my face. Yeah, 

Bailey Jacobs: so much pressure. That's the wrong question. Yeah. 

Kylie Patchett: So much pressure. Um, I I'm at a standard, like, I, I mean, part of me is not a standard because I used to be a sleep and respiratory scientist.

So, you know, experiencing life as a medical scientist in a hospital system, which again, is a broken system based in a hierarchical, you know, fixing model where we, you know, um, medicalize and yep, rank and whatever, but I'm going to say it anyway, it astounds me that something that is a primal drive is not being centered.

in a therapeutic context. Like, how can we not be talking about that? And it also We ask 

TJ Matton: people about sleep. We ask people about nutrition. We ask people about, like, some of these other core pieces, you know. [00:52:00] Sometimes we ask people about loneliness. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Right? But we don't actually teach people to play again.

Kylie Patchett: No. 

TJ Matton: We just like expect that like, they know how. Hence the revolution. That they'll figure it out. You know. That they'll just figure it out. Right? I don't even know. 

Bailey Jacobs: I would say we're not even telling adults. We're not even putting an expectation on adults to do that. Right? There's so much research and I'd say one piece that a lot of people get tripped up on is there's so much research now about how important play is for children that parents often even get.

re traumatized or re triggered by play by seeing their children play because there's so much pressure that my child must play well, right? Like there's so much pressure now that like it's so important. I must make sure I'm cultivating play in every moment of their lives But like you're not modeling it for them anywhere, right?

Yeah, so like people are so disconnected and play deprived that there's no modeling And also there's so much pressure on the adults in the room to create play when like they don't even know what that brings them joy. Yeah, 

TJ Matton: like your kids don't need you to play. No. Right? They don't need you to play, right?

They actually need you to get the hell out of their play. Yes. Most of the time. I mean like they don't want you out of the relationship, but they don't need you in their play. Well, the greatest gift you can give to your child is the thing that all three of us have already referenced is that we never got to see a healthy, healthy, uh, like, adult in their play, right?

And so, like, what an incredible gift for, like, my kid to not be afraid of becoming an adult. Because like, I get to take different kinds of risks and I got a little bit more money than you do to take it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I get to like, nobody's putting me on a bedtime, you little, you know, like, like, you know.

I wish someone would. I know, for real. I like, I should, I tell my husband, I was like, you know, I need that. Go to bed, play Teddy. But again, like, you know, what it's, how beautiful it is for kids to not be so, in such a. An astounding level of grief of losing childhood. So afraid of becoming themselves, afraid of becoming [00:54:00] adults.

And so many adults are actually modeling that because it sucks being an adult right now. Adulting is fucking worse than our culture right now. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, there's no joy. No joy at all. Right? 

Kylie Patchett: No joy. 

Bailey Jacobs: Mm-hmm . 

Kylie Patchett: You, um, you said something about Parentification before. I wanna come back to that because when you said about being triggered by your own kids', play it really.

It connected something for me and I, I, so I have a parent that struggles with addiction. So I was parentified very, very early, um, and you know, was put into the role of caregiver. And so I didn't play as a kid, there was no play. And I actually really relate very hard to Bailey with the control thing, because to me that was seeking safety because I had a chaotic, you know, chaotic home environment.

And so. As a young adult, like my friends would give me so much shit about, like, she needs to know every single thing and where are we going to go to and get fuel on the way to the, like, I just could not cope with anything that I didn't know was happening. Cause, and I now can very easily see that I was seeking safety.

But, um, when my kids were born, I've got girls 12 months apart. So like, and we went from my husband and I to my dad and my husband and I, and to. Kids in the space of a year. So it's quite like a, it's quite intense transition. And I went from like managing a big, um, medical company with 200 people. So lots of ability to control, you know, lots of moving parts, lots of things that you couldn't, you know, shining in that role.

Yeah. High performance shining in that role, working 24 hours, just ridiculous, like self abandonment stuff. But then I would get home from that role and my husband would be, you know, On the floor. Having some wild like play with the kids and I'd be like, well, I'm fucking good for you that you can lay on the floor and be, I was just so unable to understand.

A, that he could just walk in the door and not look at what needed to be done because that was like, you [00:56:00] know, again, my sort of agenda. But yeah, that, you know, he was just on the floor playing and I'm like, thank God one of us was. But I look back and I think I was just absolutely, totally triggered by the fact that you could just.

Be in enjoyment. Mm-hmm. Like I had a no reference point. Right. Um, mm-hmm. And now I, I feel like, I don't know the kids. My girls are 19 and 20 now, so, um, and one of them's moved back home and we this stupid dance competition in the kitchen last night. And I was like, it's like I'm grateful that I've been able to learn ways of being in enjoyment, but I do look back at their younger childhood and I think.

Wow. I would definitely do that differently. And obviously you can't go back in time, but I just think the parentification, it's also interesting to me that like between the ages of eight and 11 is when you're starting that. puberty transition and estrogen is starting to ramp up and by definition that is a hormone of accommodation.

And I'm like, interesting. So there's biological drivers is starting as well. Um, Bailey, when you were talking before you said a particular type of play, and I'm interested, like, can you kind of capture, cause I do think. When, like when you said before, you know, play is X for people and if we've got an X around it is more than likely not actually play.

So can we talk about some different like types of play for people that are like listening going, Oh, I don't know. I don't know. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, well, so I was referencing the one of the preeminent kind of researchers on play, Dr. Stewart Brown, and he identified eight play personalities. And so while there are, there's no wrong way to play, right?

It's your internal experience. There are some kind of pillars of research that have been done. And so we reference all of them, right? Like, we don't subscribe to any one. Um, and so, but for the eight play personalities, let's see if I can name them from memory. Let's go. Yes! [00:58:00] Um, so I mentioned directorial, which is Uh, the ability to like plan and vision, right?

Yes. For people who love planning trips or love planning parties. There's the storyteller, which Kylie, that's probably a very natural home for you. know that was 

Kylie Patchett: one of them. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. And that's also people who just didn't, you know, there's the classic of telling stories, right? Or engaging in stories. But then there's also just the passive receiving of stories, right?

How are you? Where are you? Where can you come alive in? In story, whether it be a podcast, a book, movie, there's the creator, which is kind of this idea of like building. That's where arts and crafts live, right? The like idea of like making something, but cooking also lives there, right? Um, that is where your, yeah, I told, cooking's a very natural play place for me, right?

Where it's just the creation, the building of something. Yes. Hands on. Yeah. Yeah. Very cute aesthetic. Yeah. Um, and then another very natural place for adults is the Explorer. And that is, uh, the wonder that comes alive is seeing something new, right? So going somewhere new, traveling to new places, um. Are all living in the Explorer and that can be done on a big scale, right?

Like I used to be someone who like always had the next trip planned, right? Because I had to have that newness. Yeah Yeah, but now I find I think I can find newness everywhere now, right? I can walk down the same path that I walk all the time in the woods and by my house and still Feel that exploration and wonder in what I'm doing, right?

And then there's number five. I would say it's the competitor That is and one thing to note with the competitor is it's about rules TJ hinted on that before of like all of us entering into an experience together with a set of rules. Yes, and One thing that gets hard is people who are naturally competitive can get kind of swooped into winning or losing right that outcome That comes right that the outcomes what's important.

Yes. And I've also gone through an [01:00:00] experience of not being a competitive person in part because I hated the outcome of losing of reclaiming the joy that comes from the experience of competing. And I didn't want my daughter to become a poor sport. Like I was I'm like, I needed to relearn the joy that comes.

In the experience of competing, not the opposite. I hate 

TJ Matton: competing. Like, I hate. You don't. You don't. I guarantee you don't. Well, we're gonna run a competition in a second. Okay. guarantee you you're not gonna hate it. Okay. Cause I, yeah. Okay. I want, I want to highlight, I want you to understand the difference between how you've been trained as a competitor versus the primal drive of competition.

Okay. 

Bailey Jacobs: Okay? Uh, and then we 

TJ Matton: have the. 

Kylie Patchett: Intellectual. 

Bailey Jacobs: I don't. And then kinetic. Intellectual. Yes. Uh. So kinetic is, um, movement, moving your body, right? That often gets strapped for adults in exercise classes, right? Like, uh, a form and structure, which often exercise is not play, right? Like we, we have so much shit on top of that, that like stops it from being play, you know?

Um, and then there's the joker, which is the classic, like That's my husband. Yeah. And like, you probably thought of like a very classic, like comedian or jokester type guy, right? Yeah, but the joker, and we like to push this really this point for women a lot, is that it's joy through laughter, right? Mm-hmm

So where can you find joy through the act of laughter, right? Yeah. Like we've had so many laugh, like laughter experiences in this that would've been, that are kind of joker play, um, that isn't one of us getting, well, we are behind microphones, but like not one of us getting behind my grandma and telling jokes, like 

TJ Matton: being in a show.

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, and I'm so proud of myself that I did it, because number eight is the collector. 

TJ Matton: Oh 

Bailey Jacobs: my god! Collector. Um, yeah, and that is, um, you know, the act, you can think of it in very literal terms, like of a, uh, collection of classic cars, or like a stamp collection, but it's also the like, touchstone of like joy through memory, or joy through [01:02:00] like collecting of experiences, right?

How can you, how are you, like, how are you building story? Like a tracker. Yeah, and like a mementos from life and like pulling all those pieces together, right? Like even if you wouldn't consider yourself a collector, probably all of us have things that we have Collected, right? Even if it's not a quote unquote like capital C collection.

Yes, right. Yeah. Yeah. And so that and all 

TJ Matton: of these yeah 

Bailey Jacobs: I was going to pivot away from Stuart 

Kylie Patchett: Broward, yeah. 

TJ Matton: Yeah, so we're all, all eight of these. And it's almost like a moving pie chart where like certain people bring out more of this or certain activities bring more out of this but then there's also generally one that people can kind of self identify in.

Um, a couple other places where there's another researcher who talks about four frames of play which is intellectual, other directed, whimsical and, um, frivolous. Um, that was whimsical, and I think it's frivolous. Um, and, and again, I think it's important to understand, like, people, there's people who freaking love studying, right?

Like, who love learning new things, and that can be seen kind of as an explorer, 

Kylie Patchett: right? Like, exploring 

TJ Matton: new topics, it can also be seen in this intellectual framework, right? Um, there's also for me, I think, thinking about play in like this linear way, things that have like direction, and then, and then breath place, right?

Like, width, and have that kind of like, meandering feel to it. There's also, you know, um, that balance of novelty and repetition, right? Where novelty Kind of puts us into that more hyper aroused place like, uh, what's house is gonna go Which is important and And then there is the repetition aspect that puts us in contact with our mastery of something, right?

Builds confidence, right? And they both bring a different type of confidence, which is my confidence to be surprised. Yes. [01:04:00] And my confidence to be empowered and in control, right? Yep. In a way. Um, and one of the primary things about play is that it's always driven by choice, right? And so this is part of why, like, exercise is not always play for people.

Yes. Because while you may choose to go to an exercise class. If a teacher is not teaching from a playframe, then they're not, like, if nobody is, if everybody's doing the exact same thing, you may not be in the play zone, right? You may, but you may, you may not. It may not be safe to be in that individuation.

So, you know, when we talk about competition, I want to run a little competition for us, right? Um, because I want you to think, because I want you to understand, like, competition is, like, not as a, winning and losing. Yeah. But as a like, um, everybody has to play by the same rules, right? Okay. And so listeners, you guys can do this too.

Um, and I'm going to play one of Bailey's favorite, like one of our favorite little play hunts. So I'm going to put a timer here for 30 seconds. Okay. And see how many, Colors of green, can you find? Alright, ready, set, ready, set, go.

Alright, stop. Okay, so before you tell your answer, right, what's it like to be in the anticipation of what other people's answers are? 

Kylie Patchett: This is so funny for me. [01:06:00] I've always put this down to being an only child. I'm deeply uncomfortable competing against other people. I am very happy to compete against myself.

So I feel anticipation in a good way. And also like, I hope that I don't win. 

TJ Matton: Right. Right. So that's okay though. Right. Like there's a, again, that play it plays with like joy and risk. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. Yep. 

TJ Matton: Right. Like aliveness and risk. Right. And so again, like Competition is this place where you bring people of like kind of equal skills together that challenge each other, right?

Like challenge, like we just challenge each other to like feel alive in our own environments. Like what a cool thing that we just competed against. Yes, yes. Oh my god! It's entering, it's like it's entering a very confined experience in a commitment of togetherness, of following the same rules, right? Like, I, like, And like, and so it's their feeling of like, real cohesion and like, that occurs in competition that is different than like, winning and losing.

Yes. Well, and 

Bailey Jacobs: how did it feel, those 30 seconds to you? How did you? Oh, fun. 

TJ Matton: Like, I, 

Kylie Patchett: I love 

TJ Matton: doing the 

Kylie Patchett: thing. It's just 

TJ Matton: the, I don't know, I'm just having so much fun. Oh my god, would you say that it's using your voice? That's a little scary. Yes. Being seen is a little scary. Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah, like being celebrated might feel a little scary.

Yes, 

Kylie Patchett: definitely. Oh my god. Oh 

TJ Matton: no, you might be up against some play edges. Do you 

Kylie Patchett: know, as we're talking, all I can think about is my younger daughter, like I've like my daughters are so completely different. Like you couldn't get, like, they are literally opposites. And my younger daughter has always been super competitive.

She actually once broke my toe trying to get to the toilet quicker than me. Like, that is, that's the competition I don't like. I don't like it when people are like, all for themselves and I'm going to injure you if you [01:08:00] get in my way. That type of thing. That's what the edge is like. Yeah. Anyway. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. Think about that.

It may not be that you don't like competition, but you may have a wounded competitive experiences. That's probably right. Right. Yeah. Right. Um, yeah. Go ahead. In that 

Bailey Jacobs: experience, you had different, like, we can talk about the power dynamics between you and your daughter, but then also like the rules, right?

Like you had rules of like, you know, she's your daughter. You could have shoved her down. You're stronger than her. Like you could have 

TJ Matton: Yeah, thrown an elbow. That's an 

Bailey Jacobs: invisible rule. You could have thrown a bow right in her forehead and been done and won, right? But she didn't turn 

TJ Matton: around and done it back.

Bailey Jacobs: Right, but she's a kid, right? Like, like, you know? She may not 

TJ Matton: have, there's some consequences because of the power dynamics, right? Right. Those are 

Bailey Jacobs: all invisible rules swirling in that little game, right? And she broke one, literally broke you, and broke one of the rules. Right? By being too rough. Yeah, which is 

TJ Matton: harm.

Bailey Jacobs: Um, 

TJ Matton: you 

Bailey Jacobs: know? And so then it stops being play, right? But like, as her grown up, right? The risk got too high and then you know, that's where it stops being played for you because like it's your job to also steward her through those rules. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so there's, there's a lot swirling in that. Right.

But at the same time, like, you know, it might just be, uh, you need to find other paths to competition that like bring out the aliveness without bringing out the, like, you know, without stepping on invisible rules. Right. Or without having it be outcome driven. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think 

TJ Matton: that's one of the things that people actually like, you know, some people really love about competition is that it really takes all of the invisible structures.

and makes them very visible, right? So, like, there is a lot of coherence and, um, like, very opting in, right? Like, very much opting in, right? And again, like, we think about, like, how important sometimes structure is, like, The outside of a field, right? Yes. Like, that helps a game, right? It helps build a frame, right?

And so again, this place where like [01:10:00] sometimes the sort of structured and rule based play is really important to cultivating internal play experiences as well as sometimes the abandonment. is super important about creating internal, like, internal drive again. So just so, like, you know, people can know.

What numbers did you guys get? Who won? 

Bailey Jacobs: Well, I do think it's unfair because I'm sitting in a green room. Um, and so, like, I already have one. This is one, though. Yeah, this is one. I got to 17. 

Kylie Patchett: I got to 25 because I have Nice! Look at this, though. This is my unfair advantage. 

TJ Matton: Ooh, so good, right? 

Bailey Jacobs: And 

Kylie Patchett: also, look at my shirt.

Bailey Jacobs: There's like so many different greens. Right, but that's again, we talked about the rules, right? Like, what if we had set the parameter of like each object, you can only count a certain object of green ones, like we could also ruin the play by giving too many rules. Too many rules. Yes. There's not enough freedom.

Yeah, not enough freedom, right? And, like, it's, you know, if one of us, if I was playing by that rule, right? Because I also have a pack of multicolored markers, right? If I was also playing by that rule, but I was like, I only counted that object once, like, that disconnect in rules would have ruined the play, like, would have, could have ruined the game.

Yeah, like, 

TJ Matton: I could have pulled up Google and just done different shades of green. And like have a hundred color, you know, right. So again, like when people are oriented towards winning, it actually doesn't allow for the play dynamic because play is relational. Yeah. Right. It's a relational experience. I only got 13.

I never win this. ever. I am also looking out into 

Kylie Patchett: my garden, which has got like, you know, 50 different plants. 

TJ Matton: You know, that's one of the things I think is so interesting is like, you know, again, in this place where you run into questions and curiosities, like does each plant count as a different color green?

Right. Like when I've played this with people like out in the woods, they're like, well, is earth just [01:12:00] one color? I was like, you tell me. Yeah. Right. Like cultivating that place of the rule maker. Right. Like, what are the rules? that you want to cultivate to make this game of life enjoyable? Would it be more fun for you for the earth to just be one color in this game?

Or would it be more fun for you to dive into the richness? And like, there's not a right or wrong answer. Right? It's like, what, you're the rule maker here. What cultivates more joy? Right. And so it's again in this place of like, what's my, what's my on ramp here to more joy, you know, to feel more relationship with myself and the outside world.

Yeah, 

Kylie Patchett: I love, um, that was really helpful to me to understand the different types of play too, because like you've said before, like thinking that play is one thing, like if you'd sort of said to me at the beginning of this interview, like how much playing do you do, I would have gone, Oh, well, probably not that much.

But then when they talk about like, Like definitely kitchen creativity is somewhere that I definitely play all the time. I made the most divine pumpkin panang curry last night for dinner, which was delicious. Nice. Oh, so good. Um, but also I just went to Melbourne, which is one of our capital cities and I was there for five days and I just was reminded of when I used to travel a lot more and that beginner's mind where?

Everything is new. Like you're figuring out what's the best coffee and where's the, you know, how to get, like, I'd never caught trams before. So how to get on the tram and how to, you know, navigate a new system and how to get here and whatever. Like, I just love that. It lights so many things up in my brain that are just like, I mean, that's pure joy for me.

I'm like, I like, I was literally walking around. I have this like goofy, like. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, the wonder, right? You're like feeling the wonder of connection to something greater than yourself in exploration play, absolutely. 

TJ Matton: You know, and I think one of the things is like when we talk about play and it being this such a multifaceted experience, you know, there's [01:14:00] play that is extraordinary, like you talked about lighting up a lot of your brain, right?

And we have play that kind of like lives a little bit more in that high arousal state, right? And then we have play that lives in low arousal states, like reading. Like your favorite book again, right? Like writing a letter to a old, like a loved one, right? Like watching a candle, like flicker, right? Because again, that like kind of low arousal play, like it's risky to be seen resting.

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. It's 

TJ Matton: risky to be seen in ease, right? To enjoying like the luxury of time, right? Like both hold different types of risks. The risks of feeling alive. and the risks of feeling at ease, right? They hold different risks and people, you know, and so again, it's important when you're thinking about recultivating play that you're starting where the risks are low because you need your body to be able to metabolize the play experience, right?

And then the more you kind of can cultivate the play experience. The more, like, kind of, the more you can kind of continue to dive in deeper and take bigger risks 

Kylie Patchett: on 

TJ Matton: yourself, on other people, on people's places and things, right? And but again, like, play has this breadth and it's important to, like, kind of honor both sides of the spectrum of play.

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Um, and starting where it feels, like, Interesting. Yeah. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. Like, 

TJ Matton: just a little hard. Just a little hard. Baby steps. Yeah. Yeah. And 

Bailey Jacobs: that's where we, when we talk about mindful play, you know, Kylie, you kind of mentioned things that you enjoy doing, right? Yeah. That you are in the play state when you do those.

When we talk about mindful play, we're really helping people, try to get people to bring that intentionality to it. Of that connection to self, of like. Oh, at the end of a long day, I need the going into the flow zone of cooking. And that is a practice that [01:16:00] I'm going to commit to, or I'm going to try to do every day.

Because it's, it's a cultivation of my joy, right? And so when you bring that level of intention, not only is it about relearning where those sparks are, relearning where that joy sits, it's about being intentional about it, right? It's about being intentional, risk 

TJ Matton: taking. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. And mindful about where you're going to bring that engagement.

Right. Bring that joy back in, into your life on a everyday basis everywhere. Right. Um, you know, we showed how we, you can kind of create a spark of play in 30 seconds. Um, it doesn't have to be a big hobby, right? It doesn't have to be a three hour meal. It can be something, just that small reconnection to your joy.

And over time. It grows. It's regenerative. It keeps getting bigger and bigger and more complex and it, it, it's a huge, uh, the best way to grow, honestly. Like when we talk about like healing from drama, right? And personal growth, like reconnecting to this as a kind of guidepost is a hugely powerful way to do that.

TJ Matton: Yeah. I like that. You know, and I think, you know, um, one of the things that when we talk about like play education and like the intersection of play and drama. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, you know, I, as a trauma therapist, believe that everybody has some exposure to trauma, right? We are all in sys like in whether that is on micro occurrences in your own body, family systems dynamics, cultural dynamics, right?

That there's layers that we all are navigating in our own bodies and systems, and like systems of people and trauma. When we think about it, when, how I like to define trauma is that it's too much, too fast. on a body to be able to make sense of and metabolize and move through, right? So it's like being served something without your permission that you can't fully digest, right?

Like eat [01:18:00] this T bone steak. You're like, Oh, you know, like there's not enough space for self. There's not a space for digestion. And so you are having to like, Sort of take it and like and your system is like trying to figure out and like spins all the time Now shifting in and out of different survival states right like fight and flight, right like Or freeze or what we call dorsal or collapse or fawn different ways of thinking about that Right, so we have these three states of the survival system, but right above fight and flight is actually play in the nervous system.

And we don't teach this from an education standpoint. So like right above play is what we call ventral, which is the rest and digest the social connection state. So play lives in between the social system, like the rest and digest system and fight or flight, which is why, like, if you think about play on this like dimmer switch, right?

Like sometimes it's like that more relaxed experience of feeling closer to the Rest and digest, easy social connection, right? And sometimes it's on, like, towards the other side of the dimmer switch where, like, it's a little fucking scary. Yeah. Right? And it actually has, like, when you think about being in play, right?

Like, you know, I often go back to sports, like, being on a sporting field, right? Your hypervigilance is actually turned on a little bit. Yes. Like, where are the players? What's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're watching your back, you got your eyes out for other people, right? That's a form of hypervigilance, right?

And so, play is this place where you're actually turning, like, you're taking some of the arousal patterns that live in fight or flight, right? Where your eyes are darting, you're focused, right? But you're learning to experience those in a safer body experience. And so it's really important, and again, we don't, it is not possible for our bodies to [01:20:00] shift out of trauma survival patterns and just end it all good.

You have to play in order to get to the social connection because it's, you can't bypass levels. You can't bypass. And like, I don't understand why, like, I just don't get why we, and I, I mean I do and I don't, but again, we have this culture that's like wants people to feel good. That wants people to feel fixed.

That like, and so we bypass going from we teach Fight and flight, and we expect that once we get through fight and flight, it's all good. But a lot of mindfulness actually triggers people to shift back down into people pleasing. Right? Like, like, say more 

Kylie Patchett: about that. 

TJ Matton: Right? Like, so, why? So, I work with a lot of people who struggle with meditation.

Right? Because they can't, because they're just being asked to sit still. 

Bailey Jacobs: And be quiet. Right? Which doesn't feel safe. And be alone with your thoughts. And be alone with your thoughts. Which doesn't feel 

TJ Matton: safe. And to be alone with your thoughts. Which doesn't feel safe if you were a child conditioned into good girl behavior.

What is the fucking difference? 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Between asking somebody who has been conditioned into good girl behavior to sit and do good behavior based meditation. 

Kylie Patchett: Oh my god. I feel like we just cut that piece out and that will be your entire interview because that's Right, so like 

TJ Matton: I teach a lot of people like when you meditate, can you just, because when you breathe, like your spine, like stillness is not real.

Stillness is not a thing. I hate that we try to teach stillness. It's not a thing. Because when you breathe Your spine moves like a snake. Undulating, yes. It undulates. Your body is always in undulation. Stillness is an absolutely absurd expectation. It is an unreachable, an absolutely unreachable and absurd expectation.

Kylie Patchett: Yep. 

TJ Matton: So, like, if you are struggling meditating, just fucking move. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. [01:22:00] 

TJ Matton: Just fucking move. Because that will create the stillness that you long for if you just sit in the undulation and you just live in that, like, sweet, Right. That sweet pacing. And sometimes people have like faster paces that find their stillness.

Sometimes again, like it's a slower pace that people find stillness. I'm like, I don't fucking know. Cause I'm not in your body, but like throw stillness out the window because it's not a real fucking thing. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. And, and it does feel like giving just another impossible standard to try to achieve, which is again, extractive and very like.

This is the right way to do this. We need to fix this by doing this. And it's like, well, it's not binary for starters. And again from 

TJ Matton: this like, If 

Bailey Jacobs: you don't feel better, it's your fault. Right? 

TJ Matton: Yeah, this is, You just need to do it more. Do it more. Keep practicing. Keep practicing. Like, maybe this isn't the right way to do this for you.

Right? But I also think the thing I really struggle with and like the way we have hijacked mindfulness is we teach people stillness and quietness without teaching them advocacy. and aliveness, right? So what is the good of being a yoga master if you're not politically active? Correct. What is the good of being, like, great at meditation if you aren't using, like, your calm power to deconstruct systemic oppression?

Hundred percent. And so, like, if you have, we have, like, you can find a gazillion yoga classes. You can't find one single class that teaches primal screaming, right? Like, you can't do, like, if you're only doing one side, you're only doing oppression based mindfulness. You're only doing oppression based mindfulness.

And I, and it, and like, sometimes people are like, why do you hate yoga so much? I don't hate [01:24:00] yoga. I hate oppression. I fucking hate oppression. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. Like, it's, and it's just another system, like, like as I'm hearing you talk. And I think that that's why like my mind really struggles with this whole, just get on a yoga mat and play.

But as you're talking about the stillness thing, what I. I have noticed is that almost every time I allow myself just to play, like I always rock myself anyway, which I think is just a, it's a calming thing for my brain and I, I can, yeah, I have always been someone who, like, if I'm standing, you'll notice that I'm rocking backwards and forwards.

I've got a hammock outside for the same thing. Like that feels good in my body, but just playing on a yoga mat. So often just about breathing and moving like every way that my spine will move, because that's what feels good in my body at the moment. Whereas when I was doing, when I was being a good yoga teacher, you know, following the rules, it was all about sitting your ass down for at least 20 minutes of perfectly still meditation.

It was so deeply uncomfortable, but because it was what I was told was the thing to do, I was still trying to tick the boxes. Like that's just more control and more like. You know, and, and it's, um, really, if I'm truthful with myself, so many times I can look back at the systems I've tried to be a part of and just gone, it's more self abandonment.

Under a different name, you know, that's all it is, really. 

TJ Matton: Well, I also want, like, I want to bring a lens of compassion to that, right? Because, like, the purpose of our system doing self abandonment is to find belonging. Right? Like, so, I would also, like, really, like, offer some love to this part, in that, like, there was nothing, you weren't doing anything wrong in seeking belonging.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And trusting 

Bailey Jacobs: a system that told you to trust it. 

TJ Matton: I know, right? Yeah. That told 

Bailey Jacobs: you there was going to be joy on the other side, right? [01:26:00] Yes. That like, we got 

TJ Matton: you. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. We were trusting leaders and systems that everyone was telling you to trust, right? 

TJ Matton: Exactly. And again, like going back to that self monitoring, like at some point, your brain and your body and your heart were like, That doesn't feel right.

No. We started to find like the right risks out of these patterns and that was, that is truly what play does. Like at its, at its heart, play is the path to, is the only path to building neural path, new neural pathways to learning new ways of living, new ways of being, new ways of behaving, new ways of connecting, right?

It is the new, right? And so all healing should be anchored in play. Every coach should be trained in play. Every therapist should be trained in play. Every person who is offering service to another that they hope will make that person feel better 

Kylie Patchett: Better, yeah. 

TJ Matton: should be, one, offering work that feels aligned in their own play 

Kylie Patchett: Yes.

TJ Matton: and brings the play forward in their clients because like our healing is not meant to be another form of torture. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: That's like, it's like our system of oppression. Yeah. You know, like I, like, it's one of my goals that like my clients want to come to the work with me, you know, like, and that's a really important testament is that like, not every play date goes well, but like when you're in it and anchored in play, It's fine.

They get washed, right? Because like you're in it, you know, you don't win every game. You learn that kind of resiliency through play. Yeah. Um, 

Kylie Patchett: as you're talking about the neural pathways, that's like, it is the completely opposite idea to this idea that something needs to be fixed. Yeah. That is like, This is flawed.

We need to somehow change [01:28:00] this. Whereas what you're, what the, the truth of what you're saying is that we're actually growing towards a different way of experiencing the world or like using that experiencing to, to create new. Ways of being, which I don't know, overall as you're talking like what I am feeling is this sense of like relief in my body.

Mm. Not like, oh, and this is something else to do. Yeah. I'm I'm curious for both of you when, like, you talk about like, you've been in play for two years, Bailey like that, like what does it actually, and I know it is, it kind of sounds like I'm looking for the checkbox, but I'm, I'm curious. No, that's important to see, like how, what does it actually look like day to day of.

Because I, I feel like for me, especially like self care or self devotion, I don't know, like I, cause I've got a neuro sparkly brain as well. Like for me, sometimes like anchoring like habits on top of habits works because, you know, if I brush my teeth and I may as well work something else on it, but I've found myself.

You know, being quite, um, it's a transactional thing. It's like to feel good, I must do this and then this, and then this, and then this. And it's just like, oh, fuck, that's just more stuff to do. So I'm, I'm interested in the, the day to day reality of being in the play. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. Um, and so I'd say one thing that when reconnecting to that internal self, right, that self monitoring that feels good, right.

Um, Is also this reconnection of your own curiosity and kind of like this trusting of your impulses, right? So the play often starts at curiosity, right? It starts at the, Ooh, what would it be like if I did that? Yeah. Right. And it could be learning something new or it could be trying a new recipe, right?

That intriguing curiosity play a factor, right? So every day I feel like I am in diving into [01:30:00] something that Um, gives that kind of, right. So there, there's that piece of like allowing my curiosity to be tended in a way where like it's never diminished. Right. So much of our time as adults, we're on autopilot, we're doing our routines.

We are going to work, we are coming home. Like there are like we are doing the chores. And what could I either stay curious about that I could see in a new way, right. Yes. Or even being curious about. What would make me enjoy this moment more right bringing that intentionality, right? How could I enjoy folding the laundry more?

How could I you know the other day? I when I was folding a mountain of laundry TJ and I texted each other pictures of our mountains of laundry What is that about? When does 

TJ Matton: that finish? 

Bailey Jacobs: It doesn't. I'm 

TJ Matton: going to talk to that. 

Bailey Jacobs: It's never done, right? Um, and so I created, I created different rules for myself of like, um, for a while because it was so big, I had to create multiple rules because that's the other piece is learning when the play's done, right?

I created one where like I couldn't move my feet. I had, I was standing and I had to fold the laundry and like get it to its spot, only like moving my upper torso. But then that got a little boring, right? I like, I was like, okay, I need something new. Right? And so then I started dancing while I was doing it.

Right? And then I started, I, and then the third time, because it was that big of a pile of laundry, I needed three separate, like, play engagements to do it. 

Kylie Patchett: Right? The last one was 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, sitting and, like, really trying to stretch out my hamstrings, um, because we're sitting at a desk for 15 years. My hamstrings are, for my whole school as well, my hamstrings are very tight.

Uh, and so I was, like, then moving into the practice of, in my body, of, like, just trying to feel expansion while I was, while I was then folding the laundry, right? So it's that orientation towards joy. And then I kind of have my pillars of like things I might like that core play right that is my joy right and then making sure in some way I'm tending to that in some way.[01:32:00] 

Whether it be going outside on a walk to hit that exploration play right or trying a new recipe right really giving myself that time and space to be in a recipe as opposed to like. Cooking for my family, right? Like, allowing myself to be in it, right? Or, uh, I love doing watercolors, right? I love water I honestly I love watercoloring flowers.

Like, that's just what I love doing. I don't try and like, that's what that low sensory, low input type like, play like, I I'm never trying to sell my watercolors or monetize them. I'm never trying to do other types of watercolors. I just fucking love Watercolor flowers. And so I'll just sit there and just do them, right?

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

Bailey Jacobs: And so it's again, like, a balance of, like, the curiosity and impulse. It's a balance of, like, orienting towards joy, right? Every day, what am I doing? Like, if I'm in a moment, my joy matters in any moment. That's what we try to, like, hit people with. Your joy matters. You deserve joy. You never don't 

TJ Matton: matter.

You never don't matter. 

Bailey Jacobs: Your experience of joy matters. And, like, so how can I, in my life, Orient towards my experience of joy. Um, and then also just going to my home base, right? That home base of joy as almost like a daily tending. That's where kind of the practice piece. Feels right of like a daily ritual.

Yeah. The ritual of those big, the bigger play that I know is that's my home, right? That's my sweet spot. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. And I think like kind of to pull on a couple of pieces we've talked about and like echo on this, like I have ritual practices, my, my daily ritual practices. I have to move every day, like water.

Right. And like, I just, I want to not be told what to do. I want the water to take me. I just want to feel yes. Like, I am so much water. Like, all I have to do is just be a water. Right? Like, and it's just this fucking delicious. And like, sometimes that's like, just like little, like, ripples and sometimes it's really big waves.

But every day, like, I have to move like water like, just to feel like [01:34:00] Um, but I think one of the things that's really interesting is like we have this idea that like, oh, once I'm done with the chores, I can play and like, then you realize as an adult, like you're actually never done with the chores, right?

It's the same kind of framework as a kid. Like once you're done with your homework, you can go out and play, right? The way that we hold play as hostage, um, for perfectionism and performance. And so like one of the things that we really encourage people to do is actually add play, see if you can lighten.

Cause again, If we start to think about chores actually as rituals, as rhythmic, that they're not finite games, they are actually more infinite games, then you can't get out of the game. You have to get in the game. Right? So, there's things like, you know, if you're brushing, and one of the, one of the on ramps we give people often is, are you a mind, heart, or body player?

So like we just take brushing our teeth, right? A mind mind play around brushing our teeth is like, can I really focus on like the details? Like every single freaking tooth, right? Like turn the brain on, count them, right? A heart player might be the fact that like. When we clean our mouth, we are actually doing incredible, like, cardiac health care, right?

This is our number, like, one of the number one ways to tend to our hearts and our bodies, right? Like, what is it like to, like, give my body this health? To give my body this, like, people aren't afraid to connect with me because, like, I don't Smell. Yeah, yeah. Right? Like. It's always a plus. Right? So like, there's a heart practice there.

Yes. Right? There's also a body practice. Like, can I wiggle? Yeah. Like, can I use my body to move my toothbrush? Like, can I be the electric force? Right? It's very funny. That Bailey created lots of games, right? One of the ways that you can also just kind of like lean into this like because we are very big advocates of not putting more on your plate, but playing where you already are.

Yes. Right? Play where you already are. Right? Like find the stuff [01:36:00] that's mundane every day and like kind of take those risks of joy in the everyday. 

Kylie Patchett: Right? 

TJ Matton: Um, so like what is it like to actually like explore brushing your teeth when you cook? Like, are you excited about the ingredients in that intellectual way, right?

Are you excited about, like, what it means to cook a meal, right? Or do you, like, love to feel the heat, right? Do you want to feel the heat and, like, the, Oh! Chop, chop, chop! You know, and the ump ump ump. Right? But, like, again, like, You know, you can think about your play in all these different personality ways, but like also one of the ways that we encourage people in cultivating play is like a mindful practice.

It's like taking it into your everyday, take yourself into your everyday activities and do them with either mind, body. Or heart play, like mind, heart, or body play, like, as your guide. Like, which one of those feels easiest turned on? Yes. Right? 

Bailey Jacobs: I like 

TJ Matton: that. That makes it so much easier than a list 

Kylie Patchett: to do.

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, when you're going about your daily life, you're still, your brain is still engaged in some capacity. All the time. Um, maybe it's disengaged or annoyed or you have apathy, but like your engagement is still there. So how can you change your engagement and move it to a place of intrigue, curiosity, um, focus in a way that actually creates enjoyment, right?

That like will spur. Yeah. And 

TJ Matton: sometimes that's turning the body up, like turning the attention and the engagement up. And sometimes that's turning it down. Yeah. Right. Like shove your lawn, like, you know, make your laundry into like, just activate, like. Not caring as much, right? Like what's the light, like, what is the way that I could care the absolute least about this experience?

Like, you know, like, what is it like to be like Snow White who like just loves laundry, you know? Like, 

Kylie Patchett: I actually am one of those weird people that gets a kick out of folding laundry. So anytime you have a big pile. 

TJ Matton: Honestly, Kylie, that probably goes back to that, you know, [01:38:00] the part of you that talked about how much you liked control, right?

Yeah. And again, like, These places where we pick up language that somebody has called us, like, we are so controlling, but actually, like, there is a part of your play that loves to be in control, right? That loves to feel the completion of laundry, that loves to feel the finiteness of it. Like, you probably, like, if I were to guess, like, you're somebody who enjoys folding and, like, a really It's tactile, 

Bailey Jacobs: kinetic play.

Very much so. And no one else should do it for me. 

TJ Matton: Yeah, exactly. So that's a part of you, like, still cultivating kind of directorial play that, like, you were punished for at other phases in your life as calling it controlling. Right? And you're like, who cares? Yeah, exactly. Because I like to be in control of it.

And I actually enjoy it. It's not causing any harm. 

Kylie Patchett: There's something about the, yeah, there's something about the texture of, I'm so texture driven. Like, and especially if something's been, like in our summer, well, I mean, we always use our line, but you know, in our summer particularly, like there's something about the feel of a towel that's been out in the sun that like Australian sun is so harsh.

Yeah. That it just, it's a whole experience of the smell of the laundry and all of those things. And I love, I. Absolutely delight in an organized linen comfort. 

TJ Matton: Yeah, right? That actually makes me happy. That's beautiful, right? Yeah. And so I think this is a great, yeah, reclaiming that joy. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

TJ Matton: You know, and I think this is what's so important. I'm so glad you're, like, we're talking about this and, like, this kind of, like, closing parts. Because, like, again, I don't want our message to land for people as, like, go do more. Yes. Right? Yeah. Stay where you are, stay where you are for right now, and see if what you can cultivate, because I promise it will grow, like I promise your sense of trust, your ability to read yourself, your ability to push yourself in the ways that matter to you will emerge, because play is contagious, it [01:40:00] does not stay contained, like you are not, like, take your hands off the wheel, in a way, in a way, Right?

And so start where you already are and just like allow the play drive to reignite, to re emerge, and begin to cultivate that sense of trust that lives in play again. 

Kylie Patchett: I love this. It's been so helpful, um, for me to just Get clearer on different pieces of your message. And I want to, I feel like to conclude, I really want to, so I remember when we, when we first met, you were talking about how, you know, reclaiming play and reclaiming joy is a revolution.

And I just want to come back to that. Like that is the key of everything we're talking about. Just like rest is revolutionary. Um, so. Both of you, whatever you would like to say about revolution and also how to find both of you and your work that you do in the world would be beautiful. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. I'll start so that you can close us with work stuff, babe.

Okay. Um, yeah. Um, I think I'm going to go back to that sentence like you never don't matter, right? Like you never don't matter. Like your joy, your sense of fulfillment is absolutely the essence of who you are. And what a gift you might bring to your, the people you love 

Kylie Patchett: if 

TJ Matton: you bring a more authentic and embodied version to them.

How much more your community is going to be served, your family will be served. Because again, play isn't, while we learn to cultivate play by ourselves, like in many ways, like, it is incredibly relational. Like, it is an act of love. And it will never stay contained just in your own being. It is an act of, like, You never matter.

I mean like you always matter. Yeah, and everybody always matters. Yes Right. So it really [01:42:00] is this like we matter together. Yeah, we matter 

Kylie Patchett: And we, when, sorry, when we allow ourselves to matter by definition, that opens the door for us to allow everybody else. And just as we're talking like the so many, so much of what you're saying is just reminding me of that.

You know, the, the key thing that I'm always working with clients about is just like bringing your message and your magic to the world. And it's in, it's the same essence. It's like the way that you experience things, the way that is important to you, the way that lights up your joy is going to be an individual experience.

But what we need to create a more healthy collective is more. You know, present, happy, fulfilled, juiced up humans, you know, overall, in connection. People who are 

TJ Matton: bringing their gifts to the world. Yeah. And 

Bailey Jacobs: we got to this place because we are, we are existing in a world that doesn't give a shit about our joy.

It doesn't give a shit, right? It cares about how much we produce. It cares if we procreate, right? It cares on how much we consume. But it does not, the world, capitalism, white supremacy, they do not care of About your joy, right? And it is a revolutionary act to step outside of that system and say my experience of joy matters, right?

To embody your joy, to trust and bring your joy out into a world that doesn't value it, right? But to hold it and claim the internal experience of your joy is Is that revolutionary step, right? And it allows us to create more authentic embodied connections. It allows us to bring our magic into the world.

Um, and the world desperately needs it. We desperately need this joy. We all do. Um, and, uh, we just want you to join our revolution. Yeah. 

Kylie Patchett: Aw, it's been so beautiful to spend time with you both. Can you tell people how to find you? I know that you have a couple of juicy, like, introductory, like, [01:44:00] let's introduce to play.

As much as what we've spoken about here, um, how can we find that? Yeah, 

Bailey Jacobs: and so, you know, our website is ThePlayfulRevolution. com Um, where you, you know, we have a, we have an intro sequence, the story Kylie references in that, kind of our first batch of emails that orient you to our world. We call it our like, reprogramming, right?

Our reorientation to play. Because it is a whole, it's reprogramming your brain. Right. 

Kylie Patchett: We're 

Bailey Jacobs: also on Instagram, obviously at the playful revolution. com or at the playful revolution. Um, and then, um, you know, we'll have our podcast. The play rebels is also a further orientation to our world, a way you can dive deep.

And we also have a new. We have a new tool that's pairing with that, um, that, that explores the play person, that the play styles that we talked about. Um, so we have a free tool that will be available for people to access as well that we're pretty excited. 

Kylie Patchett: Oh my goodness. I did not know that was in the work.

That's very cool. 

TJ Matton: Oh my gosh. It's so fun. We'll send it to you. Yeah. We actually, 

Bailey Jacobs: that'd be great. We're going to send it to you right now and you can try it. Oh, 

TJ Matton: yeah. Exciting. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. And 

TJ Matton: we love to hear from people. We love to hear how this work resonates for people, like where it takes people in their work, where it takes people in their journeys.

We love to answer questions. We love to collaborate, you know, because Bailey and I, our work is so relationally driven. We really like to be in relationship with you, listener. So if you felt a single spark, it would be a joy to hear about it. It would make our light our lives up. 

Kylie Patchett: So important. I've been, um, on a little bit of a, well, since you and I, you and I were in the mastermind together, um, this crazy voice noting adventure on Instagram.

So actually talking human to human crazy and the deliciousness of those. Connections like really, really, and knowing, yeah, when something does [01:46:00] resonate or, you know, just allowing people to ask questions and stuff and being in relationship. I'm like, wow, this really, I mean, we know this in real life. I don't know why social media has eked it out of us, but please do reach out to the beautiful Bailey and TJ and just, yeah, share, share what you, yeah, just.

And so many light bulbs have turned on for me in this conversation. I'm like, okay, I'm going to have to let this like settle into my, into my, um, and 

TJ Matton: also understanding like play is iterative, right? Like we hear one thing and it like rose without our, like without us like needing to do much and, you know, and this will spark things for you.

It will spark things for others. And like, When you want another little boop, boop, like when you run into another set of questions, like we want to come back and answer them. 

Kylie Patchett: Yes. Well, I'm already thinking I want to actually, one thing that I'd really love to dive into, and we will have to book another time.

It's like the. When you were saying that play lives between like the, the spectrum that you just talked about in terms of like the heightened and then, and then the rest and digest, I'm like, that makes so much sense to me because I identify as being able to access play more readily in the heightened state, which is where I've lived in fight and flight.

TJ Matton: And neurodivergence live a little bit more in that heightened state. Correct. 

Kylie Patchett: Yes. And so the rest and digest that. Really like, can I really allow myself to just swing in a hammock and read a book? That feels very edgy. Exactly. And I find 

TJ Matton: like people who have neurodivergent histories like are like, oh my god, this is so relieving, just the same way that you felt and like the way that I felt finding it.

you know, and the way that like I've all of a sudden become like a great meditator as a result of breaking the rules. All right, we love you. Thank you so much. You're amazing. 

Kylie Patchett: Bye 

guys.

There you go [01:48:00] beautiful one, another delicious, juicy, truth talking episode with a Disruptor, Rebel or Revolutionary sharing the identity shifts. And the mess and the magic of leading right on the edge of your expansion and going first as a visionary leader, as a woman creating a business, and inviting people to completely new ways of learning, living, loving, and leading.

It is not lost on me that you have invested your time and your energy in listening to the show. I am so grateful for your beautiful heart, for the work that you do in the world, and I know that if you're here you are more than likely one of what I call the Mad Hatters. So the quirky, colourful, creative, out of the box, often neuro sparkly paradigm shifters and thought leaders.

So I'm so grateful that you're here. If you loved this episode, which I'm sure you did, please do me a favour and share it with someone else who needs to understand that their quirkiness and their full unapologetic self expression is more than enough, and in fact is the secret source to growing a wildly successful, abundant, nourishing, sustainable business.

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